EMISSARY^7 (G²)

COMMISIONED by CHRIST 4 SHARING HIS LIFE/KEEPING IT REAL ADMIST THE LIES (II Cor. 5:17-21))

LAKELAND, FL: My thoughts…(Part 2)

Posted by Gabriel (G²) on June 25, 2008

Something another said on the issue which I thought was very beneficial (the original author’s words in BLUE….although it
s on another named Patricia King and Joshua Mills from “EXTREME PROPHETIC”…..but still seems applicable since it ties into things regarding Bently, as seen in the video on Youtube called “Sapphire Dust and Oil From Heaven!”)

Something another said on the issue which I thought was very beneficial (the original author’s words in BLUE….although it
s on another named Patricia King and Joshua Mills from “EXTREME PROPHETIC”…..but still seems applicable since it ties into things, as seen in the video on Youtube called “Sapphire Dust and Oil From Heaven!”)

I beseech you to use caution and discretion when judging these “false” signs and wonders. You cannot quote Matthew 24:24 and then accuse Latter-Rain teachers like Patricia King and Joshua Mills of using “glitter from Wal-Mart” to deceive their followers using “sleight of hand.” There are two problems with this:
1) If you were to know some folks, as I do, that are involved in this movement, you will realize most of them are not “fakers” but are sincere, genuine, honest, God-loving people (who are sincerely deceived that what they are experiencing is from God). To blanket all of them as being deceivers is not only passing unbiblical judgment, but also serves to strengthen their own “strong delusion” when they “suffer persecution” from the “weaker brethren” (that’s how they perceive us);
2) Much (not all) of what is now being “manifested” at these neo-prophetic meetings is NOT a cheap stage trick. I also once thought such reports were primarily the result of clever illusion, but after several years’ of ongoing research into these “second generation” signs and wonders (and getting “uninvited” from teaching at a former church due to the pastor’s unwillingness to publish the truth), I’m convinced that much of what is now being “released” in many of these neo-prophetic meetings is the work of deceiving spirits, under the guise of what they call the “manifest presence of God.” Leaders in this movement “seem to know” the gospel, but at the root of many of their “miracles” is a counterfeit Spirit that is building an ecumenical church of Antichrist based on the sensational and experiential (Matthew 7:20-23).

This is disturbing, but not at all surprising, when you consider that similar “signs” have been happening for centuries under Catholicism and other cults: (tears, oil, gold dust, etc.). Some have been faked, to be sure; others have been unexplained, including “genuine” miracles of healings at various Marian shrines, for example (not Benny-Hinn style, psychosomatic and/or staged “healings”). So, I simply encourage my concerned brothers and sisters in Christ to excercise biblical discernment in love, realizing that genuine believers (not just followers of Oprah and “The Secret”) can and are being deceived by an “angel of light,” which is no laughing matter to be mocked and ridiculed. Instead, we would do well to follow the Apostle Paul’s example:

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“Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears” (Acts 20:31).
 

For those of you who research, the roots of the Kingdom-Now movement of which Patricia King is a part, go back to the Latter Rain heresy and other influences of the mid-19th century (but of course extend back to the Garden). One of Patricia King’s friends and co-ministers in the Neo-Apostolic and Neo-Prophetic movement, Todd Bentley, claims he “heals” using the same angel as William Branham (a misogynist and pyramidologist) which Branham acknowledged was NOT the Holy Spirit, and that he could not heal “unless his angel shows up.”
Increasingly, unholy spirits are indeed appearing thru “portals” at these meetings (as they have been to New Age cultists for decades, as well as to Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White, William Branham, and to pagans in every tribe and culture for millenniums before that). Discerning believers recognize that the messages and manifestations of these spirits parallels the teachings and types of experiences being communicated to and through the New Spirituality movement. To believe that these deceiving spirits (2 Corinthians 11:13-15) only actually appear (in visions, trances, etc.) to non-believers in “cults” is a lie as equally devastating as the messages these deceiving spirits convey.
If only those outside the church could be deceived, why would our Lord warn us repeatedly, “take heed that no one deceive you” and that “many shall come in my name…and deceive many.” While Jesus certainly knew some would deceive with “glitter from Wal-Mart,” I think he was speaking of something a little more convincing than mere trickery. Which is all the more reason to “prove all things,” pray, study, watch, evangelize, disciple, and above all, to look up.

There have been (and no doubt, continue to be) many fakes and frauds in certain charismatic circles. But using ridicule and condescension (as is all too popular and easy to do in blogs) to “rebuke” those brothers and sisters who are victims of deception raises several concerns:

1) your speech is not seasoned with grace (Col 4:5-6), nor is it edifying to the body (Eph 4:29). Considering the principle of rebuking heresy and restoring a brother or sister, you are out of order:

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“Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted” (Gal 6:1).

 

 

 

 

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Again, responding in pride and immaturity to false teaching does a disservice to the discernment community, and only serves to add fuel to the fire for those deceived by this movement.

2) to clarify again, Matthew 24:24 is not primarily a warning against FRAUDULENT signs and wonders (which would not be truly “great” at all) but spiritual COUNTERFEITS at least on par with those of Pharoah’s magicians (Exodus 7:11).

3) the noteworthy aspect of increasing reports of supernatural “signs and wonders” (not simply “fakes” and “fools gold”) is that the Lord Christ Jesus warned that such would be a preeminent sign of his soon return (Matthew 24:4).

4) furthermore, we ought not to be so arrogant as to assume we are exempt from being deceived ourselves (Prov 16:18, 1 Cor 10:12). As an example, consider Simon Peter’s admirable and accurate profession of faith in Matthew 16:16, and then the Lord’s scathing rebuke of him a few verses later (Matthew 16:23).

4) remember that the Apostle Paul “ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears” (for THREE YEARS!) about the apostasy attacking the church from within (Acts 20:29-31).

So again, in issuing a biblical rebuke to false teachers within the body, we ought not to ridicule those being deceived any more than we should mock unbelievers on the broad road to destruction—but rather, weep and warn in grief and humility as did the Apostle Paul.

5) in conclusion, discernment and “judging righteous judgment” (John 7:24) is serious business that requires conviction, courage, accuracy, and maturity; but those who seek only to take careless or unloving potshots need not apply.

The Apostle Paul speaks to every heart when he writes,

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For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith…. Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits” (Romans 12:3,16).
With this in mind, Patricia King and her many associates and disciples are certainly in need of loving rebuke and biblical correction, but she and the victims of such “signs” that this movement promotes (whether fakes or demonic counterfeits—and for that matter, even things which may be genuine and point people to Christ) deserve not scorn but Christ-like pity, compassion, and prayers for their understanding, repentance, and deliverance.
 
 

 

 

 

All of that I thought was very much on point. However, someone else had this to say:

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Go and do it then. You have all the Biblical answers seemingly. Bye the way, I disagree with this conclusion. Sometimes, the false teachers and false prophets, do deserve public derision and scorn, from the true men of God. Paul was not gentle with deceivers, neither the apostle John, nor the Lord Jesus. Who was it who said, “Away from me, workers of iniquity, I never knew you?” I forget.

In addition, what are the “good things” associated with this revival?

All that’s valid, of course. But again, if we’re going to be biblically faithful, then one has to adress the question of whether or not ALL ERRORS ARE IN THE SAME CATEGORY (and in any case, there was a SPECIFIC type of group of those decieved that were treated a paticular way).

If  we’re going to be biblically faithful, then one has to adress the question of whether or not ALL ERRORS ARE IN THE SAME CATEGORY (and in any case, there was a SPECIFIC type of group of those decieved that were treated a paticular way).

I asked this of you before—and it was never adressed. Now’s your chance (and hopefully, it’ll be tackled this time, as I’ve done my research—- False Teachers being a good place to start).

In the epistle to Titus, there were false teachers there which were doing much damage and Titus was told to rebuke them sharply:

Titus 1

However, in the fellowship where Timoty was stationed, there were false teachers there as well…and yet Timothy was given instructions on how to deal with the situation as well

II Timothy 2

Again, both fellowships were involving false teachers…..and my question is—in light of the popular statment that all false teachers/those holding to their teachings were always severely denounced, why does there seem to be a distinction if false teachers are always supposed to be labeled ONE WAY ONLY (i.e. with sharp words, harsh terminology, etc)? What to make of the situation where Timothy was told to GENTLY instruct those opponents who opposed him? Could it be possible that not all error or behavior is in the same category and that differing levels of error warrant differing levels of rebuke/action?

If teaching something false is what makes someone a false teacher, then what of the times when we were teaching something that we genuinely believed to be the truth of God’s Word and were sincerly doing so to please the Lord, but later came to realize that what we were teaching wasn’t really what a paticular text meant? Or that the application of what we were teaching was flawed?

Were we false teachers then when we had less understanding on an issue?

My understanding is that the FALSE TEACHERS IN CRETE were of a ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CATEGORY than those in TIMOTHY’S AREA and thus subject to a whole different set of rules because the degree of ERROR was not in the same level.

With the teachers in CRETE, they had a BAD REPUTATION EVEN AMONG UNSAVED FOLKS!!!!

That’s significantly different than a teaching in Scripture such 3such as “Jesus already came back” which can be damaging since it’s not biblical and leads to discouragement and yet not lead to someone committing ALL OUT IMMORALITY AS THHE FALSE TEACHERS IN CRETE (who were the INFAMOUS JUDAZIERS, and literally teaching ANOTHER GOSPEL ALL TOGETHER…AS WELL AS RISING RIOTS AGAINST THE APOSTLES, among other actions as well) by the way) did

Again, WHAT DO WE MAKE OF THIS??

Moreover, Someone once said this to me when it came to the issue of what defines a false teacher/prophet:

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Quote:Jeremiah 14:13-16. Also see Jeremiah 23.And last but certainly not least, read about the false prophet Hananiah. Read all of Jeremiah 28. Hananiah did not tell anyone to go after another god, he simply gave a false prophesy, just once and God removed him from the face of the earth.

I studied those passages, and in every one of them what seemed more apparent than anything else was not the mere inaccuracy of these men….but their CHARACTER BEHIND THE WORDS

In Jeremiah 14:13-16, it’s very clear from the text that these prophets were not in the same category of error as Nathan was. Nathan was not accurate in what he said to David the first time (though he honestly may’ve thought, as brother Link pointed out, that perhaps there was no need to consult God and that the Lord was cool), but his mistake in accuracy was sincere and when checked on it, he later went back to the brother/changed his stance. With those prophets, though, they were BLANTANTLY GOING AGAINST THE LORD.

Like many (though not all, IMHO) of the same “prophets” within the “Prophetic/Apostolic” movement (and I know cause one of my sisters in the Lord is constantly sending me emails from the “Elijah List” ), THESE men were prophesying/saying EXACTLY WHAT THE PEOPLE WANTED TO HEAR. It wasn’t about preaching and teaching what was in line with the standards GOD HAD ALREADY MADE CLEAR but the PEOPLE WERE WILLFULLY IGNORING…..but about what would make everyone happy. Jeremiah was preaching/prophesying according to the WORD OF GOD….and everything he said in the name of the Lord was ALREADY IN LINE WITH THE JUDGEMENTS THE LORD HAD MADE CLEAR repeatedly WOULD HAPPEN TO THE NATION THAT REBELLED AGAINST HIM.

Deuteronomy 28-31, I Kings 8:22-66, I Kings 9, II Chronicles 6:12-42, II Chronicles 7

Same thing happened with the myriad of prophets (i.e. Joel, Issaih, Hosea, etc) who basically–even in indicating what was or what was not of God’s heart/agenda for either the moment or the future—said what was in line with the Character of God He already made clear in His law continually (reading a Chronological Bible really helped me see how many of the prophecies given were actually back to back, so the people had no excuse)

Same with Jeremiah 23, whch seens to indicate very clearly what the signs are of a false prophet. They may appear to speak God’s message but they don’t live according to his principles. They water down God’s message in order to make it more palatable. They encourage their listeners, often subtly, to DISOBEY GOD….and they tend to be arrogant and self serving, appealing to the desires of their audience instead of being true to the Word of God. In my understanding, this is consistent with the standards that God gives for false teachers and prophets in the NT….(II Peter 2), which seemd to focus not soley or even so much on whether or not they said all the right things 24/7 since even false teachers can do that/one can do all of that and still be lost (Matthew 7:21-29, Luke 6:43-49, James 1:29-27), but on the fruit of their ministries….GREED, DISHONESTY, LACK OF HUNGER TO KNOW THE WORD OF GOD, IMMORALITY–ESPECIALLY OF THE SEXUALLY IMMORAL KIND (as often is the case, IMHO, that those who’re seeking the Lord can truly walk in purity), etc…..

Add in Ezekiel 13

The people mocked Jeremiah because he brought nothing but NEWs of God’s judgement….but it was the TRUTH REVEALED IN GOD’S LAW (which none took to heart)

Same thing with Jeremiah 28. Hanniah did more than make a simple mistake in accuracy. God’s people were already in EXILE (with people such as Ezekiel already preaching to them the reason why they’d be….and in the book of II Kings, there were plenty of warnings that the same would happen to them as it did with her sister nation Israel…II Kings 17).

Hanniah came up with a prophecy EVERYBODY LIKED and that wasn’t consistent with what God had already made clear would happen in the Law when people rebelled. He declared God—despite His people not repenting—would soon bring relief to those in Exile in Bablylon from their problems and oppressors. His words were DECIETFUL and brought a false hope and comfort to the people. Jeremiahs predictions, however, were already coming true…….which again, were already in line with previous relevelation from what they had as the Word.

He was a true prophet because he spoke and was sold out to the TRUTH. Hanniah, however, was not….and it was REBELLION TO THE LORD. That’s why God got so hot when the prophets were preaching that the Jews would be able to go home soon when the reality was that God had made clear that they needed to hear what they didn’t want to hear—that they were to be DISCIPLINED/ needed to get unpacked and settle down cause they weren’t going nowhere for a GOOD BIT (70 yrs)—-and the false prophets were inciting a false hope to the people and a way out of recieving justice (Jeremiah 29

IMHO, honest mistakes/error wasn’t the real issue…….and I’ve seen many people who preached solid truth—HOLINESS, THE UGLINESS OF SIN, THE SERIOUSNESS OF GOD’S WRATH AND THE SALVATION THAT IS FOUND IN CHRIST—and even spoken against false teachings/doctrines not rooted in the word that many have done in the Lord’s name—yet there were PLENTY of areas in which they were off. They’ve called out false prophets/teachers and are seeking to build people up in the faith as Jude makes clear…..and are living mightigly for the Lord, but there are many areas in blantant error.

Many also have given many words prophetically in my life/others that were 100% spot on EVERYTIME. Did they make mistakes? Yes…..and were there times when they thought they heard the Lord on something and spoke it to others but later realized it wasn’t right/repented? Of course……

But the character of the prophet is more important than his charisma—-
Hence, that’s why I asked my earlier question of “How is what’s happening in Florida being contrary to the Basic Message of the GOSPEL?” For others have brought this up to me—-and though there are a myriad of false teachings everywhere, does a false teaching equate with a FALSE GOSPEL?

as a quick answer, one of the main things I see is the issue of the fruit people seem to come back with. Many recieved healings that tripped them out/caused them to seek the Lord more than ever before, with them getting involved in the things God said were of importance to Him—- THAT said, as asked before, Have those believers believing Florida to be valid not love the Lord and are they denying the ESSENTIALS of the GOSPEL? Even for folks who haven’t gone to these meetings, does their believing it to be a non-issue mean they’re not faithful to love the Lord and to LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR (Luke 10:25-37, Matthew 25:31-40)? Or that they’re not faithful to this

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James 1
27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Again, one of the things that has come to my attention from others is this: IF THE GOSPEL’S BEING PREACHED, THAT MUCH I CAN REJOICE IN (Philippians 1:15-18), regardless of whether or not there’s excess, wrong motives, or anything else. Same thing with this:something else which has been brought to my attention is the following:

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Whoever Is Not Against Us Is for Us /Mark 9:38-4138″Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”39″Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

In this case, some think Jesus was saying that neutrality toward Him was possible…..but nevertheless, his followers will not all resemble each other or belong to the same groups. People who are on Jesus’s side have the same goal of building up the kingdom of God and they should not let their differences interfere (providing those differences aren’t essential). Those who share a common faith in Christ should be cooperated with…….& People don’t have to be just like us to be following Jesus with us.

In light of that, how does this tie in with Lakeland–specifically, the reports of numerous individuals who weren’t saved coming to the meetings and having demons cast out of them? Or who were watching from T.V, heard Todd call out something they were dealing with and got delivered from it/healed on the spot? Folks don’t make that up—-and if they’re being passionate for the Lord/zealous for Him, that needs to be adressed.

So how does that relate to FLORIDA? How is the Gospel of Christ not being preached there currently? Or false conversions taking place? And what are some reasonable/gracious answers to concerns folks are having over it that can provide CLARITY on the issue for folks instead of the typical “IT’S WRONG!!!! YOU’RE FOOLS FOR SUPPORTING IT” answers? Deception/truth isn’t going to be realized in an instant, and deprogramming on things takes signficant time and patience with many. And yes—-it can be VERY easy for us to become like the kinds of Pharisees Jesus denounced ( as seen here, #6 —-) ) or into the trap of slander/misrepresenting people in declaring what the motives of their hearts are when we can know no such thing 100%. (://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=2649266&postcount=118 ). No need in trying to deal with one issue of sin by promoting another

    In interatcing with another, one person said this to me:

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What I would ask is, what gospel is being preached? Is it being preached at all? And yes, the uncontrollable manifestations do have implications for what people understand about the nature and character of God, the Holy Spirit. Where is the gospel of faith towards God, trusting in the sacrifice of Jesus, the life, death, resurrection of Jesus? Where is the gospel of grace at all being proclaimed? What makes these manifestations and meetings, even uniquely Christian, except that these guys use Christian language to explain away their paranormal phenomena, like translocating to another continent and walking the streets there (Out of body experiences, in the New Age), for example?

in all honesty, I’m not even trying to take sides as much as I’m trying to be about simply being objective/logical—seeing what was good as well as what was bad and moving on since damage’s been done on both ends, whether throwing out all things causing confusion or keeping everything and thus portraying validation of all things).

Who is getting glory for a healing? Or a demon being cast out? And for those whose actions afterward are in line with Biblical Fruit (and this having nothing to do with manifestations—as there are many I know of who went down there and had issues with many manifestations/people “faking” it but were impacted by the the Lord/healed to the Glory of God), what to make of them? Or for that matter, what makes you or I more qualified of a believer than they? In all sincerity—are we basically saying that we here on this discussion forum have saving faith and they in Florida don’t? I am sure there are many Catholics who are Christians, just like I believe there are a lot of people who go to Creflo’s church, Jakes church, Price’s church and White’s church. If they believe in the Christ of the bible and His work on the cross and His subsequent ressurection from the dead, that is the Gospel (I Corinthians 15.)

If any of these people from any of these camps adds something to the Gospel, rather that is Mary, communion, baptism or tongues they would MOST LIKELY be disqualified.

I know some Catholics who are Christians and they enjoy the structure of Corporate Worship there are many Catholic apologists out there also who don’t necessarily hold to all Rome teaches. I know many people who go to the Potter’s House being here in Dallas who are believers and don’t hold to a name it claim it theology. It really depends you have to take every believer individually and not put them all in the same bucket. Many are misled sheep not goats. And sheep are sheep regardless of their ignorance, I too was one until the Grace of God snatched me from the hands of hyper pentecostalism and WOF teaching. I was a genuine but confused believer then I am genuine LESS confused believer today. We must be very careful not to lump people together. The elect are everywhere—-and regardless of how they hear the message, God can get it through…

If he could’ve gotten the Gospel Message through to me even though all I had to go by was TBN, why would it be less in Florida where someone hears about Jesus loving them as they are and desiring to heal them (especially seeing that for many people, healings was what GOT THEIR ATTENTION to Jesus—-showing them God’s real, and causing them to go deeper into the Bible and see Christ as he was)—-

In another thread I made (REVIVAL!!! (but weren’t we here last time??): Defining a Biblical Revival), I once brought up this point:

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The topic of the post should speak for itself, but I was curious as to what the thoughts of the rest of you out there thought.

I brought this topic up due to the myriad of times I hear from many charismatics “there’s a revival going down here or there……” The one at Todd Bently’s in Florida is but one example among many (As there has been that alongside the Brownsville one, Toronto, Welsh, and any others you can think of). However, many of those revivals have demonstrated evidence of many unbiblical practices–if not things explicitly condemned, then in principle the fruit that’s left behind in the lives of many..

Recently, I visited the site of a brother named Andrew Strom (revivalschool.com), as I investigated it (alongisde the other one entitled “PROPHETIC CENTRAL-“WHY I LEFT THE PROPHETIC MOVEMENT””…many of the things he was about were SPOT-ON (and a plus that he’s into kats like Leonard Ravenhill since he and David Ravenhill are some of my favorites/the most prophetic and on-point voices out there in our times, )

It was encouraging seeing the things he said on various issues, including the issues of excess (holy laughter, gold dust, etc) in the Charismatic Movement/EXAMINING historic revivals and piercing revival preaching of the past, and his book that I researched called “WHY I LEFT the PROPHETIC MOVEMENT.. Gold Dust & “Laughing Revivals”.. To heed John Paul Jackson, Mike Bickle, Patricia King & James Goll, or men like Leonard Ravenhill & David Wilkerson ?seemed pretty on point too (as much of what he has to say on what TRUE PROPHETS are like is what I was thinking earlier elsewhere ( #90 )

Moreover, It was refereshing to see that I wasn’t the only one feeling the way I felt, as much of what he’s described I’ve also been wondering about (hence, why I wrote the thread on the “CALL” and my experiences with it….and moreover, why I’m tempted to distance myself from some of my friends who’re associated with kats like Bickle, John Paul Jackson, , Patricia King, James Goll and others involved in things like the CALL conference/APOSTOLIC PROPHETIC gig since there’s so much compromise/issues going on that are seemingly unadressed except by discernment ministries like Spirit of Error-Examining the Apostolic-Prophetic Movement, CRITICAL ISSUES COMMENTARY, and various other ministries. Sad to see that no one on the inside have been willing to say much about it, as well as the fact that valid things happening among them seem to compound the errors because it makes things more “sticky”?murks up the waters when it comes to seperating good from bad as opposed to either accepting everything blindly or throwing everything out rashly…….& that grieves me/has had me buggn’n for a good while now—-especially regarding much of what’s seen on the Elijah List. Other ).

Basically, I was wondering what ya’ll thoughts on it were. How to define a Biblical Revival and the Fruit we should be looking for?

In response, some individuals raised some intriguing points for me to consider (BOTH COMBINED TOGETHER):

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Actually a revival always accomplishes it’s central purpose in the Body, but inevitably, since people are involved, and tend to grab aspects OF the revival and “run with ’em”, revivals always spawn lunatic fringe phenomena based normally on the overextension of a truth or concept partially understood during the period of actual revival, and “taken over” by theological creativity in the period following the revival itself.WoF is a good illustration. There’s a BIBLICAL aspect to it (Mark 11:22-etc.), And there’s a Toxic aspect when folks start trying to “produce” faith by faking it. And a bone-stupid aspect to it which unfortunately is what winds up on TV.“Shepherding” is another illustration. Biblically there’s evidence of a spiritual heriarchy of submitted relationships, BUT the human attempts at producing that in practical terms resulted in manifulation and domination which turned toxic RAPIDLY.But the effect of the Charismatic outpouring in freeing the church to some degree from it’s “orthodox” half-life has continued, and the GOOD that came out of it is generally what the orthodox “defenders” decry as the “damage” that was done by it to their nice neat, but largely lifeless religious structures.Anything that God does in the earth effects a few people profoundly, and a larger number of people slightly. BUT MOST people doen’t even know that anything happened at all since they couldn’t care less about God or His kingdom.

 There are excesses and things that happen with any move of God that are not God. It happened in the New Testament just as it has happened every since then. It might not seem as prevalent then, but hey, we didn’t have all this internet,”stuff” and t.v., radio, and all that jazz. We were not there to scrutinize every detail like we do today. Be sure, the bad and the ugly will be seen before the good and the Godly will be seen.
Personally, I believe that the Lord is an optimist. I believe He understands us, better than we understand ourselves. Not only that, He said to let the wheat and tares grow,”together” until the harvest time. We can spend all day trying to figure God out and the things that pertain to Him, and still miss what He has for us. I do believe we just need to trust Him more.
There will be things that we see with any move that we might not agree with, or might plainly be wrong, but it will happen this way, and the real issue is how is our heart condition? Are we spending our time worrying over things that God has under control? Are we really doing the Godly thing by condemning a movement, when there will be people genuinely helped and set free? One man in the Bible said, If God is in it, we better let it be, and if God is not in it, it will come to not. Paul said,”For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.” I Cor.11:19
So, there will be mistakes, and ministers, who we set on pedistals will make them, but please, we need to keep our eyes on the Godly part and forgive the human part. Churches will be divided over issues like this. How are we going to handle it, and is our hearts right with God? I might not agree with a man’s methods but I still can agree with his Maker.

BTW, we have been having outstanding worship meetings at the assembly I attend. The presence of God has been powerful, and we are expecting to see God move even in a greater way. The Word says that signs will follow believers, so we are expecting. Blessings to you!!

Abiding
The Aged

Reminded me of what happened with those in Martin Luther’s time (and to note, even he I believe had some pretty controversial views—paticularly on the Jews). After his actions came along some individuals who in HIS NAME caused alot of mess. As Wikipedia said on the issue:

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In Wittenberg, Andreas Karlstadt, later supported by the ex-Augustinian Gabriel Zwilling, enacted a divisive programme of reform which exceeded anything envisaged by Luther and provoked disturbances, including a revolt by the Augustinian monks against their prior, the smashing of statues and images in churches, and denunciations of the magistracy. After secretly visiting Wittenberg in early December 1521, Luther wrote A Sincere Admonition by Martin Luther to All Christians to Guard Against Insurrection and Rebellion; but Wittenberg became more volatile after Christmas when a band of visionary zealots, the so-called Zwickau prophets, arrived preaching the equality of man, adult baptism, Christ’s imminent return, and other revolutionary doctrines.Luther decided it was time to act…….Around Christmas 1521, Anabaptists from Zwickau entered Wittenberg and caused considerable civil unrest. Thoroughly opposed to their radical views and fearful of their results, Luther secretly returned to Wittenberg on March 6, 1522. “During my absence,” he wrote to the Elector, “Satan has entered my sheepfold, and committed ravages which I cannot repair by writing, but only by my personal presence and living word.” ……..After banishing the Zwickau prophets, who abused him as a new pope, he now faced a battle not only against the corrupt and distorted practices of the established Church but against those on his own side who threatened the new order by fomenting social unrest and even violence. (Schaff, Philip, History of the Christian Church, Vol VII, Ch IV
d

Seeing that made me think of how often it seems that things like SABATOUGE often happen to Genuine moves of God and people compound things by taking actions that mess it up for everyone/confuse things (as what’s commonly seen on Christian Networks who allow others to promote abuse to the point that anything good associated with them becomes tainted—and now EVERYTHING CHARISMATIC is of the DEVIL or OUT OF ORDER, never mind that much of it did have good beginnings and has occured throughout time in other Revivals like the Jonathan Edwards Revival or others)—JUST As it was in other times past as well during great Revivals, which in the Bible. Everytime compromise came or people began minoring on majors and vice versa (i.e. ABBERATIONAL TEACHINGS, such as the Pharisees desire for truth/seperating turning into LEGALISM–where there was once zeal for God’s Law—or the people getting caught up in how God was prospering their nations that PROSPERITY became the END-GOAL and the Children of God forgot why they were comissioned to take the PROMISED LAND–to be an EXAMPLE instead of merely RULING OVER IT, which was a means to an end)…and then from there HERECTICAL TEACHINGS COME INTO VIEW

Moreover, I think it shows the danger of what happens when people wish to see a WORK of God, but they lack the TRUTH OF GOD (or at least minimize it)–and people forget to make sure their HEARTS WERE REVIVED IN THE PROCESS OF WHATEVER THE LORD WAS DOING. This is clearly seen in Scripture numerous times, for Reform apart from REGENERATION is never effective and eventually reverts back to pre-reform behavior…. That’s why in the back in every revival in the book of Judges 7-12 and on…..or why there were differing REVIVALS throughout Kings such as in II Kings 18-20 and II Chronicles 29-32, II Kings 21-23, or 2 Chronicles 33-35,

What happened, the PEOPLE ALWAYS FELL BACKWARD AFTER THE EVENT…..

And even then, there were times when there was BLANTANT sin in the camp, but did that disqualify them from loving the Lord?

Quote:
1 Kings 3:3
Solomon showed his love for the LORD by walking according to the statutes of his father David, except that he offered sacrifices and burned incense on the high places.

 

 

And with godly men such as Jehosophat in 2 Chronicles 17 , 2 Chronicles 18 & 2 Chronicles 19 &
2 Chronicles 20 (whose life was FULL of compromises—though they had consequences of course, did that disqualify him from saving faith in the Lord)? And if one does a full study throughout Kings and Chronicles, one will QUICKLY see that there were numerous examples of godly men who were off in a myriad of ways—and yet they were still of the Lord. As Brother Link said on the issue once (,Attitudes Towards People’s Flaws )

Quote:
I notice some ofthe posters on this forum seem to think that if a preacher has a weird idea or errs in some way, that all the preacher’s works are false.I’m thinking of a few people. Take, for example, TB Joshua’s comment about a woman being a fish woman. I don’t know much about TB Joshua. I know that there is a lot of controversy about the ‘remote control’ thing. One missionary I know seems pretty anti TB Joshua.If TB Joshua were doing real miracles from the Lord, and held to a superstitious belief about witchdoctor women being fish women, does not mean he is not from God? I’m not sure what he meant by the fish woman, but some weird things are reported to happen to demonized people, and maybe he is referring to something like that. (I’m thinking of the flying head witchdoctors of Bali, Kalimantan, and I think the Philippines also. I’ve never seen it but if sorcerers can turn sticks into snakes in the Bible, then maybe this other stuff could be real, too.)If a preacher is off on one area of doctrine, or sins by having an affair or getting drunk or whatever, does that mean his minsitry was not from God?Let’s just imagine we took that approach to some of the Old Testament heroes. Gideon heard God. But he did that fleece thing. If we went all ‘heretic hunter’ on Gideon like some of the websites do with modern preachers, might we not reject him as a pagan? Also, since Gideon collected gold to build an idol, might not a heretic hunter, using the same approach as used with modern preachers, right off his great victory as not being from God?

What about Samson? If we use the same approach to Samson, would we reject his supernatural strength as being from God because he touched a dead animal, slept with a prostitute, sold out his secret to Delilah, and got his hair cut?

Regarding the example he gave with Gideon, Might wish to add that Gideon also had a prostitute whom he had a son with named Abibmelech and who torn up his kingdom afterward/killed all his sons afterward (Judges 8-9)…..and the same with kats like Jepthah (Judges 11-12), David (who made PLENTY of mistakes–one like being in sin for an entire year with Bathsheba and the issue with the Census of the nation he made), Solomon, King Asa, and a good study throughout the Book of I-II Kings and Chronicles to examine the lives of differing kings and how they were of the Lord though some areas were off. ( Remember the phrase “In all things he loved the Lord, EXCEPT….and the people under their care suffered as well due to their actions)…..The same thing’s possible in Florida, IMHO…..and though false teaching’s an issue, to be REAL, if God can radically save you and I—DESPITE HOW JACKED UP WE WERE and STILL ARE IN MANY WAYS (even if we think we’re not as messed up as others may be and there are numerous areas in which we sin and yet don’t even realize it yet), what makes the folks down in Florida otherwise?

   Again, Part of me’s reminded of what happened with Solomon—who though not flawless at the beginning of his reign throughout his lifetime. Solomon, despite God’s explicit commands to not make alliances with other nations, did so at the very onset of His reign —as it was through marriage of the daughters of other nations that milatary alliances were formed for security (and hence why Solomon later had 700 of them–it wasn’t just an issue of “jungle fever” . His building lavishly of the house for the daughter of Egypt GREATLY taxed the people, and seemed odd it took more years for that than the temple if I’m correct ( 1 Kings 9 )(and though it may’ve initially seemed as if the nation had no problem, it was one of those “sleeper agent” problems which came back later to haunt him/the nation of God seriously—-and even with God reminding him of what He emphasized earlier in Deuteronomy/Numbers, he didn’t listen, 1 Kings 11. much like the ones in our own life which God has adressed and we tolerate due to not seeing immediate effects or “big enough” ones to alarm us quickly). God had instructed him/the people not to sacrifice at the high places seeing that they became inroads for pagan ideas/influences and were not under the rule/influence of the priests in the Jerusalem temple who could give Biblical oversight—even though, Solomon tolerated (sin)..hence, why God appeared to him in a dream instead of in the temple where those things usually happen (lest God come off as if He was validating the HIGH PLACE practice).

Nonetheless, God saw Solomon’s heart and how he desired to rule justly and He honored that—-despite how Solomon was not seeking the Lord in other areas, IMHO (as seen in his accumulating great wealth for himself later in life, contrary to SCRIPTURAL principles for a King –and taxed the people/enslaved some of them so greatly that by the end of his reign for his son, the nation was ripe for a revolution ( 1 Kings 10 , 1 Kings 12)

Quote:
1 Kings 3 , 2 Chronicles 1:1-3 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 1
1 Kings 3Solomon Asks for Wisdom 1 Solomon made an alliance with Pharaoh king of Egypt and married his daughter. He brought her to the City of David until he finished building his palace and the temple of the LORD, and the wall around Jerusalem. 2 The people, however, were still sacrificing at the high places, because a temple had not yet been built for the Name of the LORD. 3 Solomon showed his love for the LORD by walking according to the statutes of his father David, except that he offered sacrifices and burned incense on the high places.4 The king went to Gibeon to offer sacrifices, for that was the most important high place, and Solomon offered a thousand burnt offerings on that altar. 5 At Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon during the night in a dream, and God said, “Ask for whatever you want me to give you.”

6 Solomon answered, “You have shown great kindness to your servant, my father David, because he was faithful to you and righteous and upright in heart. You have continued this great kindness to him and have given him a son to sit on his throne this very day.
7 “Now, O LORD my God, you have made your servant king in place of my father David. But I am only a little child and do not know how to carry out my duties. 8 Your servant is here among the people you have chosen, a great people, too numerous to count or number. 9 So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong. For who is able to govern this great people of yours?”

10 The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for this. 11 So God said to him, “Since you have asked for this and not for long life or wealth for yourself, nor have asked for the death of your enemies but for discernment in administering justice, 12 I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be. 13 Moreover, I will give you what you have not asked for—both riches and honor—so that in your lifetime you will have no equal among kings. 14 And if you walk in my ways and obey my statutes and commands as David your father did, I will give you a long life.” 15 Then Solomon awoke—and he realized it had been a dream.
He returned to Jerusalem, stood before the ark of the Lord’s covenant and sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings. [a] Then he gave a feast for all his court
f

Part of me, regarding the situation with my friends into Bently/FLORIDA AND ALL THE EXCESES, is thinking “Man, Lord, just like with Solomon, it’s confusing to me seeing how they can be filled with wisdom and see you work MIGHTILY in response to their vaild prayers on some things—like preaching the Gospel, seeing God work wonders/deliverances of many kinds to show His power and how REAL He is, encouragement, etc—and yet on other things they don’t exercise wisdom where you’ve made yourself CLEAR on some things….how can they operate in the Gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12 in some areas/seek to utilize them for thy glory and yet abuse them in the same breath (Just as it is with me and the “error” on my side of the street that I’m either willfully comfortable with or honestly don’t realize what I’m doing, even in being presented Scripture that just doesn’t “click” at the time). Kinda like Jesus said to people who truly thought they were doing right to them in abusing/crucifying Him,

Quote:
lLuke 23:34
Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
Quote:
2 Timothy 2:23-25 (in Context) 2 Timothy 2 2 Timothy 2:23-26
23Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Regarding the previous thought, one individual said this to me::

Another quick comment. It is the confused sheep I care more about than these “leaders”. The leaders are the ones who are heaping up condemnation for themselves (if what I believe about them is correct). I wasted many years chasing after these kinds of phenomena; moving away from the true gospel.

Sincerly, I’m glad that she cares for them—as do I, though On my side of the street, my heart goes out to BOTH—-For me, the question is “do we really believe that God could save the false prophet/false teacher”? IMHO, Our answer should be yes (if my understanding’s correct, including II Peter 2, I-III John and other passages on people who were the worse of the worse–. 2 Chronicles 33 and King Manneseh being one of them—and Ahab being another, as even he showed himself capable of repenting/humbling himself in a manner God took note of, 1 Kings 21:1-39/ 1 Kings 21:26-28 & 1 Kings 21for tearing one’s clothes was a common expression of grief/terror/repentance in the face of great personal/national calamity–Numbers 14:6, Josuha 7:6,Judges 11:35, II Samuel 1:2 and II Samuel 3:31, )

…. I once said we shouldn’t pray/BE CONCERNED for them and after applying my head knowledge (theology) to my heart (the Regenerated heart the seedbed of emotions where theology is applied to make actions) I had to say God saves bad people throughout history including myself (Titus 3:1-8). I am pretty sure those who saw me as a teenager prayed for God’s mercy on me while I was rebellious in more than one way, or the same for my friend who destroyed their neighborhoods by ambitiously engaging in the entrepreneurship endeavor of the Dope Game. I appreciate their prayers and intercession for me so in light of God’s mercy I too shall pray for the “worst” (how highly we think of ourselves) of men ( 1 Timothy 1, 1 Timothy 2.). God had mercy on Ninevah though they didn’t deserve it….and numerous other kats—

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