EMISSARY^7 (G²)

COMMISIONED by CHRIST 4 SHARING HIS LIFE/KEEPING IT REAL ADMIST THE LIES (II Cor. 5:17-21))

LAKELAND, FL: My thoughts on it all (Part 1)

Posted by Gabriel (G²) on June 24, 2008

To all those who’re charismatic, Before going any further, wanted to give out some links pertaining info that may be beneficial to any of those out there who happen to be Charismatic (most of which are taken from one of the individuals I respect GREATLY in the Lord and his site, http://heatlight.wordpress.com/ )

WHAT ARE THE RESULTS OF SPIRIT BAPTISM? by Adrian Warnock (and also, in connection with Andrian, consider these online lectures from New Frontiers’ conference in the USA.  NEW FRONTIERS CHURCH LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE.)

CONVERGENCE (iTunes podcast)- a sermon by Sam Storms on “Reformed Charismatic” theology, with a   s QUESTION AND ANSWERS session available.

Using our Gifts in Proportion to our Faith part 1 (An excellent sermon on the prophetic, which I found Biblical, balanced, and challenging)

 SUBSEQUENCE, & ARE THE SIGN GIFTS NECESSARY: A DEBATE (2 excellent PDF’s of essays by Jesse Phillips, whose site entitled RESURGENCE is truly one of the GREATEST AROUND). Also, for anyone interested,  Is Prophecy the Same as Preaching (part 1)? & – Prophecy is NOT the Same as Preaching (part 2), which is also by Jesse Phillips at Resurgence and which is basically a marvelous two-part response to TeamPyro on whether, Biblically, Prophecy is the same thing as Preaching— a common Reformed Cessationist argument, flawed as well.

 JOHN OWEN ON THE SPIRITUAL GIFTS. (Intriguing thoughts by J.I. Packer on the issue….though of course,  I do not necessarily agree with it all, but interesting to study it remains nonetheless)

KNOWING HIM AND KNOWING ABOUT HIM (In other New Frontiers news, Terry Virgo).

BOOKS ON THE PERSON AND WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (In which Lastly, C.J. Mahaney shares his favorite books on the issue)
Others from the website:
      :
too much bloglove to even comment…read, quickly!HOW TO LISTEN TO A SERMON from The Blazing Center

WHO IS THE KINGDOM FOR from The Gospel-Driven Church

THE CHARISMATIC QUESTION from Pulpit Magazine

THE BONDAGE OF GUIDANCE from Together for the Gospel

THE FAITH THAT ISN’T from Cerulean Sanctum

HAVING ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER from Challies.com

and lastly…

Audio & Video Messages from the Resurgence Conference: TEXT & CONTEXT

 

 

 

That all said, I’d like to share some of my thoughts on the issue with TODD Bently and what’s taking place in Florida. Whether you’re in or not in the Charismatic Movement, you’ve probably heard of him and the stir that’s being caused by what’s going on down in Florida currently—-and there have been intriguing thoughts on BOTH sides of the issue. Of course, being Charismatic myself and with friends that I have within the movement supporting it (some of whom have gone down to visit themselves), I’ve had to deal with the issue up close/personal. That said said, however, it’s very odd seeing how many claiming for “Standing for TRUTH” have been treating those in support of the movement. Everything from “You IDIOTS!!!” to “SHEEPLE, I’m glad I’m not like you…” and various other deregatory/demeaning phrases have been used—-and personally, the promotion of wrong doesn’t equate with the allowance of another. There’s no where in the Bible, IMHO, that I see room for “friendly fire” on other believers—even if those believers have theology that’s off somewhere.

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II Timothy 2:23-26
23Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

What’s in the book’s in the book, regardless of frustrations (and going against that’s sin just as much as any excesses happening down there).—Saying “I’m sick of all this pussyfooting around and skirting around the issues, CALL IT LIKE IT IS—-FEELINGS ARE IRREVELANT!!!!!” doesn’t seem to hold much weight if Paul HIMSELF ADVOCATED it—-and he dealt with more issues EFFECTIVELY than you or I combined. Is it “pussyfooting” being kind, not quarrelsome, gentle with others and graciously answering concerns folks have?

For that matter,

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John 13:33-35

34″A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

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Ephesians 4

Unity in the Body of Christ

1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

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Colossians 3

12Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

As John Macarther said in his book “Truth War” (his words in BLUE): delivered (as there are a MYRIAD of Polemic Ministries that do just that—alongside backbitting, sharp sarcasm, lack of graciousness, etc— #151 ). Again, he said very clearly (HIS WORDS IN BLUE):

Many Christians today are weary of the long war over truth. They are uneasy about whether doctrinal disagreements and divisions are a blight on the spiritual unity of the church and therefore a poor testimony to the World.

These and similar questions are constantly heard nowadays:

  • “Isn’t it time to set aiside our differences and just love one another?’
  • “Rather than battling people with whom we disagree over various points of doctrine, why not stage a cordial dialouge with them and listen to their ideas?”
  • “Can’t we have a friendly conversation rather than a bitter clash?”
  • “Shouldn’t we be congenial rather than CONTENTIOUS?”
  • “Does the current generation really need to perpetuate the fight over beliefs and ideologies? Or can we at last declare peace and set aside all the debates over doctrine?”

Of course, there is a legitimate concen in the tone of such question. Scriptures commands us:
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Romans 12:18
18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
Hebrews 12:14-15
Warning Against Refusing God 14Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
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Galatians 5:22-23
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Taken together, these pasages make it clear that what Scripture demands of us is the POLAR OPPOSITE of a CANTANKEROUS ATTITUDE.

No one who exhibhits the Fruit of the Spirit can possibly take delight in the conflict….So it should be plain that the call to contend for the faith is NOT A LICENSE FOR PURGNACIOUS SPIRITS TO PROMOTE STRIFE DELIBERATELY over INSIGNIGICANT MATTERS.

That said, for those who have issue with the Florida Revival, I’d like to inquire on some things.

One: What to make of instances where Jesus seemed to do healings in ways which seemed to be “odd” and what would that look like today?

Some considerations that have come up from others have been things such as the fact that He did do things which seem straight CRAZY/ODD too (and I wonder if many of us would have issue if preachers HAD instances went around doing these things too, as there seemed to be no logicial reason behind why Jesus did it—-plus the fact that it did INITIALLY seem outright nasty, IMHO):

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John 9
Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind

1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

3″Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. 4As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
6Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man’s eyes. 7″Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam” (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.
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Mark 7:30-56
The Healing of a Deaf and Mute Man

31Then Jesus left the vicinity of Tyre and went through Sidon, down to the Sea of Galilee and into the region of the Decapolis.[a] 32There some people brought to him a man who was deaf and could hardly talk, and they begged him to place his hand on the man.

33After he took him aside, away from the crowd, Jesus put his fingers into the man’s ears. Then he spit and touched the man’s tongue. 34He looked up to heaven and with a deep sigh said to him, “Ephphatha!” (which means, “Be opened!” ). 35At this, the man’s ears were opened, his tongue was loosened and he began to speak plainly.

36Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone. But the more he did so, the more they kept talking about it. 37People were overwhelmed with amazement. “He has done everything well,” they said. “He even makes the deaf hear and the mute speak.”

Honestly, if Jesus did something as outrageous as this, that makes some pause at the myriad of other crazy things he could’ve done that the WOrd’s silent upon—-Same thing with other things prophets were called to do that seemed pretty outrageous back in the day, such as another mentioned with the issue of Isaiah and what God called him to do at one point:

[quote]

There are various other things prophets of God did back in the day which seemed very radical—from the many things mentioned in the lives of Elijah and ELISHA to numerous others (Agabus included) and perhaps a discussion on how there actions compared with those considered to be prophets/ministers of God today would be beneficial in adressing the movement in Florida….and of course, Spiritual Principles and the test of Godly Fruit is what matters/should be involved too ( #187 ).

Two: What does a miracle look like? What is a wonder? How should it look EVERYTIME? Is there even a set definition? Moreover, what to make of those who have giftings in working miracles/wonders like Stephen and Phillip did (Acts 6-7:1-5 & Acts 8), AND WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE SAY THEY LOOKED LIKE? Gifts of healings we know about (I Corinthians 12) but wonders aren’t the same thing.
Seeking Miracles–when in the right context–isn’t a sin (lest the EARLY CHURCH IN ACTS 4 was in sin for asking God to do so—as seen in this should you or anyone else be interested: How Signs and Wonders Helped Add Multitudes to the Lord ..
(plus the other one entitled “Are Signs and Wonders for Today?”

What does a miracle look like? What is a wonder? How should it look EVERYTIME? Is there even a set definition? Moreover, what to make of those who have giftings in working miracles/wonders like Stephen and Phillip did (Acts 6-7:1-5 & Acts 8), AND WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE SAY THEY LOOKED LIKE? Gifts of healings we know about (I Corinthians 12) but wonders aren’t the same thing….and from what I researched, a miracle is simply the working of DIVINE ACTS contrary to nature, so that there’s no explanation for the action except that it was by the power of God (Acts 2:22, and other things like turning water to wine, creating FOOD TO MEET PEOPLE’S NEEDS, ascending—plus the miracles the apostles did when they cast out demons in Luke 4:36/Luke 6:18, Luke 9:42, Luke 9:1, Luke 10:17-19, Acts 6:8, Acts 8:7, Acts 13:6-12, Acts 19:14-16

Three: What to do with the testimonies of those family and friends who are at the revival right now? Of course we have counterfeits—-and as I John 4 says, how are we to test things? If it denies Christ as He is in Character/turns us toward going against the Lord, then it’s not of Him (though by no means does that mean things not EXPLICITLY found in Scripture cannot be tested/automatically fall in the category of ERROR—-what matters is the end-result and fruit in the lives of others, Galatians 5). And ultimately, what is it the Lord will judge us on? Did you love the Lord and did you LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR (Luke 10:25-37, Matthew 25:31-40)? Amazing how many strive over the WOrds of Paul, but rarely will people do so on the Words of Christ like this—which were very simple (Galatians 6:1-10, Hebrews 12:4)..and it can be saddening when it seems the people doing this get lost in the forray/labeled alongside everyone else who may be in error

“You went to that RevivaL? You CANNOT BE SAVED THEN, seeing how much mess happened there!!!”
‘”Look at how messed up/crazy you are? Boy, you’re decieved (of course, I’m not) for thinking that it was God that healed you there and that perhaps there was something genuine…

May have everything else messed up, but God sees people’s hearts and whether or not they wanted to please Him—and many of the individuals who’re in the same revivals getting attention, though the excess’s an issue, are the ones going out & ministering to the poor, feeding the hungry, visiting people in prision, and walking in the power of God/impacting folks for the Lord. Not all, of course…..but there are many and the presence of some bad apples shouldn’t be allowed to represent the rest in the bunch (i.e. because there may be false signs and wonders in a movement, that must mean there were never any at all or that others seeking them didn’t do so with a right heart because many others didn’t). Have friends and family–like my friend named Mrs.Harris who’s all for what’s going down in Florida Revival and all the kats like Bickle, Todd Bently, Patrica King, etc……

and yet, despite how the excess bothers me/needs to be adressed, I’m not going to deny her heart for the Lord since she does youth work in a detention center/correctional facility. She works with the kids who were the runaways, prostitutes, and ones no one else wishes to work with. And she’s daily in the trenches praying for them/encouraging them in the Lord. She and others have prayed over their campus/against things, and many miraculous things have happened in the past 3yrs—from having a very strong WICCAN Prescence on the grounds to having more solid Christian Staff come aboard and support from those even in the secular camps because of their astounding work. We both have seen healings, wonders, and has been a TREMENDOUS blessing to me in my walk with the Lord Jesus. Other friends I have witness others they’ve prayed for years on and seeing them come to the Lord. One of my friends was a hard-core ROCK STAR—HEAVILY INVOLVED IN DRUGS AND THE OCCULT—but God radically changed His life around and when he saw the power of God, he knew the Lord was REAL AND HAS BEEN PASSIONATELY SEEKING THE LORD/EVANGELISING PEOPLE FOR THE KINGDOM.

He’s in FLORIDA right now at the Todd Bently gig—and that bothers me (alongside other things), but am I now going to write him off as an unbeliever? Same with my friend at the youth detention center. Must I write her off as somehow not saved or a lesser Christian than those speaking against the things she supports which may be error? Where do I have the right?

For people on both sides of the issue, this may aid in speeding things along

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<H5>Isaiah 20

 

Due to the complex nature of things at times, ONE can’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. THERE’s actually a pretty solid website that deals with this very issue of herectical/abberational teachings. I’ve referenced it many times and it has been a tremendous blessing to me in not being sloppy in discerning issues, entitled http://www.apologeticsindex.org/d01.html & Defining Orthodoxy and Heresy. Many of the things taking place down there need to be ADRESSED (paticularly, teachings deviating from the Word of God). And of course, discernement’s needed—-check every word against the Word of God, in honor of what God’s word has said on accepting what is true, and rejecting what is false—-take the Good, reject the bad (, 1 Thessalonians 5:18-22, Hebrews 5:11-17, Proverbs 14:15, Proverbs 19:2, Proverbs 18:13, Proverbs 18:15, Proverbs 18:17 ), and do as the Bereans did with Paul, as a preacher who gives God’s true message will never contradict or explain away anything that’s found in the Word (Acts 17:10-11)—and if in errror, they’ll repent when graciously confronted on it. And if it doesn’t acknowledge CHrist (I John 4), roll on…….

Here are some other things which have come to my attention which may be beneficial to discuss regarding the revival. One of them being that IF THE GOSPEL’S BEING PREACHED, THAT MUCH I CAN REJOICE IN (Philippians 1:15-18), regardless of whether or not there’s excess, wrong motives, or anything else….so how does that relate to FLORIDA? How is the Gospel of Christ not being preached there currently? Or false conversions taking place?

The Bible speaks plainly about lying signs and wonders—-but IN CONTEXT, they were signs/wonders to support people going AGAINST THE GOSPEL (Romans 1:16-17, Titus 3:1-8, I Corinthians 15, II John 1:7-10, etc). If Christ and Him crucified isn’t being preahed, or there’s a lack of emphasis on the seriousness of sin/the need for repentance and Holy Living, or the need to evangelize the Lost isn’t made clear, it’s not of God.

For example, II Thessalonians 2 is about signs and wonders for the purpose of supporting that which goes contrary to the message of SALVATION IN CHRIST/SUBMISSION TO CHRIST AND HATRED 4 SIN (like it was in Galatians 1-3). It’s the same thing that happened with Ahab, whose false prophets God used to tell him exactly what he desired to hear because he hated TRUTH/SUBMITTING TO GOD through the voice of the true prophets (seeing that they spoke against the idolatry of the land/SEXUAL MISCONDUCT that CAME WITH BAAL WORSHIP and other issues, 2 Chronicles 18, I Kings 18-19, I Kings 16:29-33, I Kings 21). Same thing similar in Romans 1:18-32, where God gives one over to deception when they refuse to sumbit to the call of REPENTANCE BEFORE HIM DUE TO THE REALITY OF WHO HE IS. The anti-christ is 100% against that…….That was the purpose of the anti-christ and other false teachers who’d rise up in the last days. And for a specific description of the issue, II Timothy 3-4 is an great place to start.

THAT said, Have those believers believing Florida to be valid not love the Lord and are they denying the ESSENTIALS of the GOSPEL? Even for folks who haven’t gone to these meetings, does their believing it to be a non-issue mean they’re not faithful to love the Lord and to LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR (Luke 10:25-37, Matthew 25:31-40)? Or that they’re not faithful to this

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James 1
27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
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Also, something else which has been brought to my attention is the following:

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Whoever Is Not Against Us Is for Us /Mark 9:38-41

38″Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

39″Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

In this case, Jesus was saying that neutrality toward Him was possible…..but nevertheless, his followers will not all resemble each other or belong to the same groups. People who are on Jesus’s side have the same goal of building up the kingdom of God and they should not let their differences interfere (providing those differences aren’t essential). Those who share a common faith in Christ should be cooperated with…….& People don’t have to be just like us to be following Jesus with us.

This, however, is often not the case. The same thing can be seen whenever people try to call out the issue of rebellion/EXCESS seen much on TBN…..and yet people from differing camps who don’t hold to his doctrinal stances completely shut him down….along with others who aren’t from the same camps as they are (i.e. you’re Charismatic, I’m Cessationist/Conservative….and therefore, even when you recognize an issue, I refuse to support you and will blast you instead”….”Because you believe some of things in Word-Of-Faith are valid, that means you support EVERYTHING within it that’s unbiblical and I CAN’T JOIN FORCES WITH YOU)

Often times, people’s reactions against them seemed akin to the disciples, who were jealous. Prior to them seeing the man cast out a demon, nine of them together had been unable to drive out a single spirit (Matthew 17:14-21, Luke 9:37-43, Mark 9:14-29)….but when they saw one man who was not of their group driving out demons, they told him to stop. Some believe that our pride is hurt where somone else succedds where we have failed…..and are of the stance that Jesus says there is no room for such jealously in the spiritual warefare of His kingdom—that we should Share Jesus’ss open arems attitude to Christian Workers outside your group…..and when people come to Christ, rejoice.

Additionally, many question how effective we can be in destroying the Works of the Enemy when it seems in the Christian World the Kingdom’s divided….recently, a post was placed up where a young man was fearful for the teens in his youthgroup.. However, there are many teenagers who often feel that what the church has to offer seems of little value to what happens in the world when it seems they have rebellion against the Lord on their own—just on a different wavelength (i.e. backbitting, slander, gossip, insulting, divisiveness, party spirit/exclusivism such as “I’m of Paul”, “I’m of Apollos” like I Corinthians 3, I Corinthians 1:10-31/ 1 Corinthians 1 and an unwillingness to KEEP THE MAIN THING THE MAIN THING,, which is the Centrality of CHrist)

Even in the event that false teachers are involved in Florida currently, it was brought to my attention that God’s IN CONTROL and able to SOVEREIGNLY use whoever he wills—-just like he has done in choosing to use TBN despite the myriad of false teachings to bring others the basic components of the Gospel/real life principle—or just like a sorcerer like Balaam being available for God’s use in proclaiming truth/blessing over the Israelites in Numbers 20-24—that is, as much as He used wicked Pharaoh to accomplish His will in Egypt (Exodus 10:1), surely He could do the same with a WOLF to some degree (Proverbs 16:4, John 11:45-51)

For those in support of the Florida Revival, thought it’d be benefical to throw this out there regarding what a real revival does:

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The Toronto-related activities were not different in kind than what Finney or Spurgeon or Edwards saw in their times. However, the mark of those great revivals was not the signs and wonders. Those revivals became famous for the way they changed every aspect of the lives of those who came forward. Their new-found faith was manifested :

  • in the way they spent their money,
  • in the way they raised their children,
  • in their concern for the poor,
  • in their opposition to slavery;
  • in their rejection of drunkenness, and sex outside of marriage,
  • in their support of the public rights of women;
  • in their business practices and public administrations,
  • when they are turning away from their own evils;
  • in their community-building activities,

and so on. By changing lives, those revivals affected the whole nation, both believers and unbelievers. By that standard, the great number of people in the Blessing should have made a much greater impact.

That said, for those attending the Revival down there, what to make of those individuals who’re doing those paticular things—despite the “crazies” who’re involved as well? Also, for those supporting it, is the revival causing the community in general to be impacted toward loving the Lord more and change in EVERY AREA OF LIFE?

To be clear, regarding any false teachings happening at the revival that are going unoticed, these need to be adressed.—And regarding what those teachings are, how to renconcile those with the Word of God? If they were seen, would you be willing to point them out?

I believe I have go with the words of The Lord Jesus Christ on this topic

Of course, many may bring up this:

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Mark 16:17-18

17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

However, this has been used in justification of MANY things—from churches celebrating snake handling to numerous errors in many “Word of Faith” circles saying unless someone ALWAYS GETS HEALED WHEN SOMEONE PRAYS FOR YOU, you’re out of step with God. And where Scripture’s taken out of context/used in a way resulting in folks being damaged, People cannot afford to be silent:

As another brother in the Lord said on the issue

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e, In the charismatic world is a code of silence much like that in the Mafia – if he’s one of ‘us’ (speaks in tongues, prohesies, heals, etc), he’s right. If the guy is John MacArthur, it doesn’t matter that he pastors a larger church than most charismatics – since he’s a cessationist, he’s automatically wrong ON ALL OTHER ISSUES. Compare Mac and Crouch on a doctrinal issue- and virtually all charismatics will still side with Crouch – and those who don’t will keep their mouths shut.

I could no longer tolerate the aiding and abetting that silence enabled. …

To that I say amen. Silence is something we can no longer afford…..and of course, there’s a way to do battle

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. Jude 1:17-23
A call to persevere

17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

Some people are more thick-headed than others and need a forthright approach. Others may not. In reading John Macarther’s “The Truth War” book, that was one of the things which was greatly emphasizes (as well as here where he re-wrote some of the same things, I believe—). In reading Jude 1:17-23, it’s clear that the Deceived VARY in class…… & remembering this is VITAL when dealing with apostasy/cultic groups, IMHO.

What often happens is that many choose the “ONE SIZE FITS ALL” approach by labeling EVERYONE/EVERY SITUATION the same (as well as the fact that many will attempt contending for the faith & forget to PRAY/BE IN LINE WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD, much like a soldier going out into battle based on some instructions his commander gave him but never making certain that the commands his commader gave in one situation are the same he wishes for the next….or never studying the battle to see what weapons would be appropiate and using whatever he wishes)……& that’s dangerous in our battle to contend for the faith.

Many kats I know of testified readily that when in cults, it was individuals doing that actually served as means through which the enemy could keep them further entrenched in deception….personally, I can’t imagine how it would’ve looked like when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus and treating him the same as all the other Pharisees in Matthew 23 simply because there were false teachings among the Pharisees & Nicodemus was one himself (as well as a believer—alongside others who were Pharisees, John 3:1, John 7:50, John 19:39, Mark 15:43, Luke 13:30-31, Luke 23:51, John 19:38, Acts 5:34 Acts 15:4-6, etc)—– and the same thing goes for what the Word of God says about judging (, #145 , #147 ).Moreover,

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Ecclesiastes 7:8-9
8 The end of a matter is better than its beginning,
and patience is better than pride. 9 Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit,
for anger resides in the lap of fools.

Ephesians 4:29-30, Ephesians 4:1-7, ((http://www.christiandiscussionforums…ad.php?t=93785, ……specifically in post # 5 ABOUT the Church of Ephesus which had lost it’s first love despite how they were fighting against false teachers/showing ZERO Tolerance for them..and discussed this here too, Colossians 3 and Ephesians 4:18-33, Ephesians 5:1-2),)

Proverbs 15:1
Proverbs 25:15 Matthew 5:3-10, James 3:13-18)
Ecclesiastes 10:4

Someone I was dialouging with once said this on the issue:

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Can you imagine Jesus telling His followers to look for good in the Pharisees church. Instead he said to be careful of the leaven of the Pharisees.

In being Scripturallty FAITFUL, though, he also MADE EXPLICITLY CLEAR HERE:

Matthew 23:1-12.

The Pharisses were doing many wrong things and promoting many wrong teachings/intrepretations of Scripture……..but despite the extra-biblical traditions and practices,hat was Jesus’s Solution? Ignore/not acknowledge what they did that was true becasue of the wrong actions they committed?

No, before denoucing them/calling out what they did bad, what Jesus did was simply warn them to do as they say in the RIGHT THINGS they were teaching but ignore/avoid the wrong applications/styles they were doing them in. (Matthew 23:3-4).

“Observe and do all they tell you to do, but do not do accordiing to their works……”

In other words, insofar as it accords with the Word of God/TRUTH, DON’T DISOWN IT BECAUSE OF THE SOURCE (Hyproctical people), but do it.

The “teachings/yeast of the pharises””That was something adressed previously in another thread regarding the specific context of what Jesus was talking about, so as to harmonize with the whole of God’s Word —alongside much of dealing with the stereotype of what Pharisees were in that thread,, seeing that the teachings/actions denounced by Christ in Matthew 23 weren’t symbolic of ALL THAT THE PHARISEES WERE—as there were many who did differently)

I used to be involved in circles where much false teaching took place as well, specifically, extreme WORD-OF-FAITH and MUCH OF WHAT YOU SEE ON TBN with PROSPERITY GOSPEL. If someone had told me then that “Creflo, Copeland, Jakes…they’re deciving you!!!”, I would’ve either blown it off or been very hesitant to believe the accusations. Moreover, I would’ve believed that they were bein g unfair in what they said and that the paticular ministers were truly “GOD’S ANOINTED” and were doing much good work for the KINGDOM

What it took to deliver me, as well as many others, was for someone to not simply tell me that the organization itself was wrong or that it’s ministers were off, but for them to go step by step through the things Creflo or others were saying and examine their doctrine for what it was—the GOOD that should be KEPT and the BAD that should be TOSSED (II Timothy 2:18-26, . That’s how it is for many involved in cults—whether Mormomns (who people get confused on numerous times seeing how much they’re centered on family values/good works and people wonder “Well, the Bible does support that….”), JW, Christian Science, Bahai, and a host of others one can come up with.

Basically, the idea of having that Berean mentality in evaluating sermon/teachings, regardless of the source or whether they may come from a HERECTICAL group or even one that may be considered ORTHODOX (as it was with Paul and the Bereans), we opened Scripture (and tested the fruit of it) for ourselves and searched to verify or disprove the message we heard…..

Quote:
Acts 17:11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

And If we are indeed the “royal priesthood” that we are described as, then our job description includes the command of Ezekiel 44:23,

Quote:
“They are to teach my people the difference between the holy and the common and show them how to distinguish between the unclean and the clean.”

I pray that anything I’ve offered on the issue has been of service to anyone here—-whether to those for or against the Florida Movement…..

and there’s no justification biblically with throwing out the baby with the bathwater if we’re to be BIBLICALLY faithful. Again, getting hot/in a tit-for tat with someome about it isn’t going to solve anything. ANYONE CAN RANT—-but patiently leading someone out of error’s another thing. And as there have numerous testimonies of folks who HAVE BEEN LED out of error by following II TImothy 2:23-26 BECAUSE of consideration in listening to their concerns/kindly answering their questions (as many of the things I’ve brought up are valid issues people have been having and want adressed—-but people speak right past them and folks are still confused). Where in the Word is there ever room for obnoxious or sloppiness? There shouldn’t be a problem. One can speak in a way which acknowledges something in a movement they see as valid without supporting the movement itself.

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