Archive for June, 2008

FARWELL (At least 4 awhile…and I’m serious this time ya’ll, lol)…

Posted by Gabriel (G²) on June 25, 2008

Godbless, everyone..

Was just writing to ask for prayer from everyone, as there are some things the Lord has been calling to really fast/pray on for awhile and I need to obey his voice. It’s been a struggle, but due to some intriguing events (such as 4 drunks coming to repentance last night after my friend and I drove them home and preached the Gospel by the POWER of GOD—SHANDA!!!!!), I realize that I need to really run after the Lord on some things to get some factors clarified (undisclosed at the moment).

      So, for anyone who seriously enjoys this blog, If everyone  would please send up a shout-out to God for me, I’d appreciate it. Again, I don’t know how long I’ll be gone. Could be for a week, though I’m guessing it’s gonna be for awhile—as posting on these forums is one of my greatest habits/joys (interacting with everyone/learning) but something that I feel I need to get away from and that God is challenging me on. Either way, your prayers are supported—-and prayerfully, in those areas where you’ve been challenged, may the Lord show himself to you as well.

On a bit of a different subject, Recent events have reminded me of how recently, I came back from attending a trip to a Conference called “The CALL” (THE CALL: Should Others Call to it or should it be Called Off? ) with individuals such as Lou Engle, Will Ford, and others for intercessory prayer for the nation and revival in America again. Out of all of the conferences I’ve been to, this was one of the most impacting trips by far. Though the movement’s CHARISMATIC in nature, what they’re doing in principle seems applicable for all………and it wasn’t because of “how entertaining it was” or “flashy”

It was because from 9 am in the morning till 10 pm at night, all that took place was fasting/prayer for the nation with millions of other individuals…….and they were praying and fasting on issues such as compromise/lack of zeal for the truth that often takes place in the church or letting the world influence us more than we realize.

It served to remind me how often it seems that our focus on  many boards/others are so focused on theology/discussion and yet in practical living, there often isn’t consistency….

Should I ever choose not to fast/pray simultaneously while entering into a discussion trying to listen/learn or share spiritual truth with others on crucial issues, I think that it can end up being counter-productive. For the Spirit of God’s left out of the picture and it’s now me merely saying something but God’s not at work…………and moreover, if all I’m doing is discussing issues here but not praying/fasting for other key issues affecting our nation or even the issues on this site/others that we’d all like to see change for the Glory of God, how effective am I ultimately?

Pray that what I’m saying is making sense. Some demons/forces we battle spiritually truly came come on by nothing else but PRAYER AND FASTING, like Jesus said (even when it seems there’s success prior with other means—like it was with the disciples who couldn’t cast out a demon).

Daniel 9:3
So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.
Daniel 9:2-4 (in Context) Daniel 9 (Whole Chapter

Luke 2:37
and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.
Luke 2:36-38 (in Context) Luke 2 (Whole Chapter)
)The Healing of a Boy with an Evil Spirit

14When they came to the other disciples, they saw a large crowd around them and the teachers of the law arguing with them. 15As soon as all the people saw Jesus, they were overwhelmed with wonder and ran to greet him.

16″What are you arguing with them about?” he asked.

17A man in the crowd answered, “Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. 18Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not.”

19″O unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me.”
20So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth.

21Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has he been like this?”
“From childhood,” he answered. 22″It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.”
23″ ‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for him who believes.”

24Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”
25When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil[a] spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” he said, “I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”

26The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out. The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said, “He’s dead.” 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood up.

28After Jesus had gone indoors, his disciples asked him privately, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”
29He replied, “This kind can come out only by prayer.[b]”
Mark 9:28-30 (in Context) Mark 9



Acts 13:2








Numerous other powerful passages on the issue besides the ones already given, but If anyone’s interested in doing their own research on the issue of FASTING/PRAYER going alongside whatever one does, here are some good places I thought would be nice to start:




Blessings, ya’ll





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“LOOK AFTER WIDOWS AND ORPHANS”: One more excellent ministry to consider supporting…

Posted by Gabriel (G²) on June 25, 2008

As anyone seriously investigating my blog will quickly find out, I’m very much into things such as SOCIAL ACTION and recognizing the CALL THAT GOD HAS PLACED UPON THOSE CLAIMING THE NAME OF CHRIST TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE IN DOING IT—-and there are many other ministries that feel the same. One of them is entitled http://www.heavensfamily.org/  , which is very balanced, seeing that they’re not only for PREACHING/TEACHING the GOSPEL but the PRACTICAL ASPECTS OF LOVE/LIVING IT OUT AS LIVES TRANSFORMED BY THE GOSPEL AS WELL. 

  However, in researching all over the web, one of the main websites I love to visit brought up  another ministry that struck me to the core. The name of the ministry is called Covenant Mercies (and their blog, http://newattitude.org/articles/mercy_to_the_orphan)— in connection with NEW ATTITUDE (with Joshua Harris and C.J Mahanney) and other ministries of that kind. 

And this ministry was set up under the basis of seeking to be in line with the commands throughout the Bible to help the poor, the widows and the orphans.

For a basic description of the ministry from the website:

Covenant Mercies is a gospel-centered nonprofit organization established for the purpose of serving the poor, the orphan, the widow, and others facing severe adversity in its own Pennsylvania community and beyond. Please click the links to the left to learn more about the initiatives being undertaken through Covenant Mercies.

In His grace, God has been exceedingly merciful to us. Our Savior did not sit idly by while the world agonized in the ravages of sin, but in compassion He came and suffered with us. As His visible expression in the earth today, it is our joy to minister the compassion of our Lord Jesus to those around us who are in need. We invite your prayers for Covenant Mercies as we seek to walk in the good works He has prepared in advance for us to do (Eph. 2:10), to the praise of His glorious grace.



For a video of their ministry firsthand (


– Sponsorship Program Video

). As if this wasn’t enough to be dumbfounded by, I was so taken aback by a branch of their ministry entitled Orphans Initiatives. What this basically is is an Orphan Sponsorship Program that works hand in hand with local churches in Uganda and Zambia to help the many orphans there. For a basic description



James 1:27 says, “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction…” Covenant Mercies is committed to seeing this biblical mandate lived out practically in the context of the local church. Through our Orphan Sponsorship Program, we work with local churches in Uganda and Zambia to facilitate care for hundreds of children by means of their extended families. Where no extended family is available, we construct orphans’ homes where the children can be raised in a normal family environment, integrated into the life of the local church and endowed not only with daily sustenance, but also with biblical instruction and a Christian upbringing.

It is our conviction that in certain cases, the best and most complete way to care for an orphaned child is to make him an orphan no longer through adoption. Covenant Mercies has worked with branches of the Mexican government to assist in matching orphaned children with loving adoptive families, and we hope to expand our adoption program to serve children in other nations as well, as doors are opened. Covenant Mercies’ vision for ministry to orphans includes:

* Enabling extended families of orphans to provide effective care through our Orphan Sponsorship Program
* Building orphans’ homes in cooperation with local churches in other nations
* Providing adoptive homes for orphaned children
* Providing Adoption Assistance grants for qualified families through our Orphans Fund





 Also, for anyone interested, here’s an interview from the director of the ministry on the importance of the issue:

Today we’re introducing you to Covenant Mercies, a gospel-centered nonprofit organization serving the poor, the orphan, the widow, and others facing severe adversity. Doug Hayes blogs regularly for Na and is the executive director of Covenant Mercies. We love Doug’s understanding of how the gospel informs social action.

Here, Doug Hayes shares a simple story of how Covenant Mercies cared for a boy named Onyango…

One of the things I love most about my role as director of Covenant Mercies is the unique vantage point I enjoy, from which I can clearly see the connection between our donors’ generosity and the profound impact it is having on the ground where we’re working I love to point out what I see from this bird’s eye view, because I realize that few people have the opportunity to observe the impact of their giving as clearly as I’m able to see it.

Here’s an example of what I’m referring to… As a regular visitor to Uganda over the past five years, I have been stunned to learn just how many of my Ugandan friends have lost children due to disease and other causes. There are many things that separate my typical Western experience from their typical “developing world” experience, but none has been more personally jarring to me than this one. When I hear of a child dying, it is a shock to my system; a rare and unimaginable grief that I pray I’ll never know firsthand. For our Ugandan friends, on the other hand, this indescribable sadness is a common reality of life.

A few years ago, as this disparity of experience was becoming clear to me, I asked one of our Ugandan leaders to estimate the percentage of families living in that region who would have experienced the death of a child after childbirth. I was not prepared for his answer: “Over 80%,” he said. Thinking this could not possibly be accurate, I continued my inquiry, asking the same question to another of our leaders without informing him of the data I had already collected. “More than 90%,” he said. Could this really be true? Sadly, though my ensuing survey was admittedly unscientific, it seems that the death of a child is indeed a trauma experienced by the great majority of families in this region of Uganda.

Understanding this background provides a greater degree of appreciation for the story of a young boy named Onyango. In October 2003, I happened to be in Uganda when our indigenous director learned of this little boy and his plight. Both of Onyango’s parents had died the year before, leaving him in the care of his uncle who was alleged to be an alcoholic. When we went to see Onyango, the lack of adequate care was apparent from his severely malnourished condition. At that time, he could do no more than sit on a mat with a glazed look in his eyes. I will never forget the way he gobbled up some biscuits we had hurriedly purchased on our way, snatching them with his left hand as if he had not eaten in weeks. He used his left hand because the entire right side of his body was paralyzed, a disability that may have resulted from lack of proper nutrition combined with chronic, untreated malaria.

Upon ascertaining Onyango’s need, our staff began to search immediately for another extended family member who could take him in. After learning of an aunt who lived nearby, they quickly convinced her to begin looking after her nephew. We took Onyango to the medical clinic that day for emergency treatment, and thereafter he steadily recovered. Improved nutrition provided through the generosity of his sponsor, combined with the love and care he now receives as a member of one of our children’s home families (Onyango was not able to remain permanently with his aunt), have resulted in dramatic changes in this little boy’s life.

When I went to visit Onyango the following year, it was difficult to believe I was looking at the same little boy. Though full strength and mobility had not yet returned to the right side of his body (and still haven’t to this day), he was able to walk and he had regained some movement in his right arm. But that’s not what affected me most when I saw him; it was his eyes that told the greatest story. As the photo above attests, this is a little boy who now has hope and a reason to smile! Today, Onyango is known for his love of singing, and he’s typically the first one dancing – gimpy leg and all – on Sunday morning at church (see Onyango dancing here).

Each time I see Onyango today – especially when he’s dancing – I’m reminded in so many ways of the grace of God. If not for the eagerness of God’s people on one side of the world to excel in the grace of giving, combined with the eagerness of His people on the other side of the world to look after orphans and widows in their own community, Onyango would almost certainly have become another nameless piece of a tragic child mortality statistic. But because of the operation of God’s grace in the hearts of Christians both there and here, today we have a little boy whose mourning has been turned into dancing.

To you, O LORD, I cry, and to the Lord I plead for mercy: “What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness? Hear, O LORD, and be merciful to me! O LORD, be my helper!” You have turned for me my mourning into dancing; you have loosed my sackcloth and clothed me with gladness, that my glory may sing your praise and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks to you forever! (Psalm 30:8-12)

Dance on, Onyango, and tell of His faithfulness!



And to all that, I say “Amen…and AMEN….”. I SERIOUSLY encourage EVERYONE TO PLEASE GET INVOLVED WITH THIS MINISTRY. For truly, it’s one of the greatest things I’ve heard of to date…..and an answer to prayer. So often it seems that much of the church, in an effort to combat things such as false teachings/immoralities of many kinds, have forgotten about the issues of PRACTICAL holiness and living for the Lord.  And on the aformentioned things, you could do all of that and still be LOST if love was not involved in it.

If anyone else is wanting to have more info on the issue regarding ministries like those dealing with compassion/mercy issues, this other thread was great place to start that dealt with it greatly ( #113


LOCK-UP: How does one do Missional Ministry Among Kats doing 25yrs to LIFE?

(#100 , #101 ). On the issue of abortion, it’s amazing seeing how many churhes will rightfully preach against it…and yet they’ll end there. ANd they seem to forget that it was often due to feeling as if they couldn’t take care of the child ALONE or that any other options were available that they decided to abort anyhow. The church needs to rise up again and remember that this is what we were called to do, as I truly believe that ADOPTION is the KEY TO ENDING ABORTION (or at least, curttailing it SIGNIFICANTLY). America

        This reminds me of some of the ministries I ran into during my time earlier this year at an event entitled the CALL (www.thecall.com, THE CALL: Should Others Call to it or should it be Called Off?–the latter one being from CARM and where you’ll have to register, for free, in order to view completely  ), where there was a heavy focus on things such as this and the same kind of sentiments were repeated. And it was really cool to see that, for it seemed that the concept of adoption was the missing factor in what it means to take care of widows and orphans. And regarding the conference, Personally, I thought it was very powerful as people were praying (and hearing the testimonies of people on the issue—one being how some were praying outside of an Abortion Clinic with “tape over their mouths” and asking the Lord to shut it down/bring JUSTICE and eventually it did through their efforts….http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAKU9smGC_U…and many other interesting things besides that).  Their website can be found here, 

  • BOUND 4 LIFE: FIGHTING against the Wrongs of Abortion
  • these people had the zeal for God to take a public stand and cried out to God to change the place. I guess like Paul being in Athens and noting the horrendous idolatory everywhere, and being grieved in his spirit. However, to be clear, Paul did not stand outside the temples and pray for God to shut them down. And there was gross immorality going on in them. But he reasoned with men and preached the gospel to them. When he speaks to the Corinthians, one of the loveliest things he says after listing various kinds of immoralities is “and such were some of you”, which is a great encouragement that people can and do change by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the gospel. Paul’s preaching at one point upset the silversmiths (the idol makers) of the city, because many were turning away from idols. There is no mention that he took a group of people to pray outside the idol makers convention, and pray against it, but it was through the preaching of the gospel, that people were turning away from idols. All that to say, doesn’t mean that the people standing outside the Abortion Clinic didn’t preach the Gospel nor does it mean that what they did was insignificant either—–especially seeing that one of their greatest passions is ADOPTION being the key to dealing with abortion.

    , what is it that the Church has been called to do? Is it not to be involved in the issues of our world as “SALT AND LIGHT“, to the point where our good deeds will cause others to glorify our father in HEAVEN?

    Matthew 5:13-16

    Salt and Light

    13″You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

    14″You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.”

    Mark 9:50

    Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with each other.”

    1 Peter 2:12

    11Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. 12Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.


    Was generosity/compassion encouraged in the church? Of course, but when I read, it seems primarily an issue of taking care of one another that’s of focus in the church:

    Acts 2
    The Fellowship of the Believers 42They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

    Acts 6 is another example that I think would be good to examine

    Titus 3
    Doing What is Good1Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men. .
    Galatians 6:6-10]Doing Good to All
    6Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.
    7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.


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    LAKELAND, FL: My thoughts…..(Part 8)

    Posted by Gabriel (G²) on June 25, 2008

    To anyone concerned,

         This will be the last post I’m placing up regarding the issue with Lakeland, Florida…and thoughts on Todd Bently. Rather than give you my thoughts alone (which are already jumbled enough at times as it is, though exhaustive), here’s something that I thought would be better: REFERRING YOU TO THOSE WHO HAVE DONE GREATER WORK AND BETTER INSIGHT ON THE ISSUE.

    First, the following are a list of solid teaching material on the issue of Spiritual Gifts and things regarding that topic so that the readers will have a solid foundation to stand upon when it comes to exercising discernment on issues (most of which are taken from one of the individuals I respect GREATLY in the Lord and his site, http://heatlight.wordpress.com/ )

    WHAT ARE THE RESULTS OF SPIRIT BAPTISM? by Adrian Warnock (and also, in connection with Andrian, consider these online lectures from New Frontiers’ conference in the USA.  NEW FRONTIERS CHURCH LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE.)

    Holy Laughter: blessing, curse, or something else? (An Excellent Discussion on the issue). There’s another by one lady entitled  http://discerningtheworld.wordpress.com/2008/01/05/laughter-manifesations-are-neat/ . In the authors words:

    It tells of an account of holy laughter by an unfamiliar spirit and it tells of an account of holy laughter by the Holy spirit.

    You will notice there is a distinct difference between the two:

    1) The one story tells of holy laughing that appears for
    no reason but gives immense amount of joy at time of
    said manifesation.

    2) The other story tells about a deliverence that took
    place in which Gods victory was evident over someones
    life. This person laughs a laugh of victory, joy
    and praise—


    and in connection with that, seeing that it happens with just as much frequency as Holy Laughter in many circles (Hyper-Charismatic and Charismatic alike), Slain in the Spirit: Biblical or non-Biblical


    CONVERGENCE (iTunes podcast)- a sermon by Sam Storms on “Reformed Charismatic” theology, with a   s QUESTION AND ANSWERS session available.

    Using our Gifts in Proportion to our Faith part 1 (An excellent sermon on the prophetic, which I found Biblical, balanced, and challenging)

     SUBSEQUENCE, & ARE THE SIGN GIFTS NECESSARY: A DEBATE (2 excellent PDF’s of essays by Jesse Phillips, whose site entitled RESURGENCE is truly one of the GREATEST AROUND). Also, for anyone interested,  Is Prophecy the Same as Preaching (part 1)? & – Prophecy is NOT the Same as Preaching (part 2), which is also by Jesse Phillips at Resurgence and which is basically a marvelous two-part response to TeamPyro on whether, Biblically, Prophecy is the same thing as Preaching— a common Reformed Cessationist argument, flawed as well.

     JOHN OWEN ON THE SPIRITUAL GIFTS. (Intriguing thoughts by J.I. Packer on the issue….though of course,  I do not necessarily agree with it all, but interesting to study it remains nonetheless)

    KNOWING HIM AND KNOWING ABOUT HIM (In other New Frontiers news, Terry Virgo).

    BOOKS ON THE PERSON AND WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (In which Lastly, C.J. Mahaney shares his favorite books on the issue)
    Others from the website:
    too much bloglove to even comment…read, quickly!HOW TO LISTEN TO A SERMON from The Blazing Center WHO IS THE KINGDOM FOR from The Gospel-Driven ChurchTHE CHARISMATIC QUESTION from Pulpit MagazineTHE BONDAGE OF GUIDANCE from Together for the Gospel

    THE FAITH THAT ISN’T from Cerulean Sanctum

    HAVING ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER from Challies.com

    and lastly…

    Audio & Video Messages from the Resurgence Conference: TEXT & CONTEXT




    Others to consider (which are all audio, for those who are wanting something that they won’t have to read in-depth and just listen):

    Concerning Spiritual Gifts – Pete Greasley/ChristChurch, Newport
    Prophecy Today – Pete Greasley/ChristChurch, Newport
    Use & Abuse of Tongues part 1 – Pete Greasley/ChristChurch, Newport
    Use & Abuse of Tongues part 2 – Pete Greasley/ChristChurch, Newport

    Discerning the Spirit – Bill Kittrell/Cornerstone Church of Knoxville
    Discerning the Spirit’s Guidance – Bill Kittrell/Cornerstone Church of Knoxville
    Empowered by the Spirit – Bill Kittrell/Cornerstone Church of Knoxville

    The Kingdom Triangle – J.P. Moreland/Vineyard Anaheim

    All except the Apostles – Michael Fletcher/Manna Church

    Convergence – Sam Storms/Sojourn Community Church


           That said, here are the ones on Bently from those individuals I feel would be best to recommend on the issue:


     TODD BENTLEY AND THE LAKELAND FLORIDA ‘REVIVAL MEETINGS’, from Adrian Warnock–a most insightful article on the issue….and who happens to be publishing Jesse Phillips series of detailed accounts from his visit, as Jesse has taken a break from blogging. First is, WORSHIP AT THE LAKELAND FLORIDA REVIVAL MEETINGS, followed by WHAT IS HAPPENING IN LAKELAND FLORIDA?, then JESSE PHILLIPS REFLECTS ON THE LAKELAND FLORIDA REVIVAL MEETINGSMORE REFLECTIONS, with the FINAL THOUGHTS.

     Here is the AOG’s excellent official response to the numerous reports of revival around the world presently

    Dan Edelen’s thoughts on the Lakeland Revival

     THE FLORIDA REVIVAL at the Gospel-Driven Church.

    HONEST QUESTIONS ABOUT THE LAKELAND REVIVAL. (from Charisma’s editor, J. Lee Grady, possibly the most balance look at the so-called Lakeland Revival I have read yet)

     Lakeland, Florida, & aptly, Lakeland Florida (continued). (from Terry Virgo, leader of New Frontiers International, who has posted a two part blog-post entitled—considering the man’s a solid ‘reformed charismatic’ -and has given an excellent response on the issue)

    LAKELAND (before) and LAKELAND TRIP (after) by Reformed-TULIP-Charismatic Girl


    In line with that, these too are noteworthy:

    My visit to Lakeland


    When is a “Revival” Genuine?


    Leaving Lakeland




    Todd Bentley and the Lakeland Revival


    Lakeland – real revival?


         As another wisely said on them (And his stance I hold the same too):

    I don’t agree with all that’s written below – in fact, some I disagree with, but they are helpful perspectives to get a bigger picture of what’s happening:

    There is much to take in, but I will let these speak for themselves: real people, honest thoughts, sincere emotions…seeking the truth.  Some have left the church entirely and are taking one last peak inside, some are in the middle of the excitement yet voicing concerns, some are sympathetic but have questions, and others are diametrically opposed.  Read, pray, listen.  Amen.


    To that, I say AMEN…….going along with that, from that same individual, here’s an article that I thought would be benefical to all the readers here on this blog

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    LAKELAND, FL: My thoughts…..(Part 6)

    Posted by Gabriel (G²) on June 25, 2008

    If anyone kept up, earlier I shared some of my thoughts on PRISON MINISTRY and why it seems those with giftings in those paticular areas/giftings (i.e. gifts of encouragement, helping others, administration, mercy, etc) don’t get recognized as much. Personally (though in Florida God may be doing many great things), I’m waiting for the day when there’ll be as much excitment about getting involved in the lives of the Black Community and seeing them rise up—-the fatherless being taken care of through adoption/people with solid families interacting in their lives and showing them how to be men, widows being married instead of baby-daddies going about their way and women no longer believing their being on welfare/medicaid makes them inherently less of a woman/worthless than others, folks coming out of poverty/no longer WIPPING THEMSELVES OUT THROUGH ABORTION, etc. And for that matter, prayerfully for those focused on Florida there’ll be more excitment/coverage and support of things many Christians in the U.S are doing which seem to get less than they deserve. One example would be things such as this street ministry called TEEN CHALLENGE:

    Wilkerson was convicted by an article in Life Magazine about a Gang slaying in New York City. And then after some years of providing an intense “discipling” type of ministry to gangs in NYC concentrating on getting ’em saved, and Spirit filled started to branch out. “Cross and Switchblade” is the account of the early days of the ministry.

    By independent evaluation the TC “success rate” based on hard-core addicts who enter the TC program, and successfully complete it is just over 86% STILL “clean” 5 years after “graduating”.

    They are now operating in 6 Muslim countries partnering with “Global Renewal” (Pakistan was the first one) under a unique set of governmentally approved ground rules: The Muslim addicts coming into the program are encouraged to pray to Allah for themselves, and then the Teen Challenge staff then prays in the Name of Jesus – and the folks in the program can experience for themselves who actually “delivers the goods”, moves in power and delivers – and subsequently accept Jesus as Saviour and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

    To see more info, go here:http://teenchallengeusa.com/

    Many of these kats who came in of course are dealing with sinful behaviors which are by-products of their drup/substance abuse habits…..and yet they’ve been set free. Many who’ve done street preaching have perhaps preached to these kats and they were still unable to get set free. They knew they were already going to Hell and that they were in Trouble, yet that didn’t set them free. Getting “down & dirty”/involved with those kats made a huge difference, loving them where they were and seeing them come clean eventually. Of course these things are happening among racial minorities…and in fact, regarding Florida, many kats I know of are doing these very things. As said previously, many of the individuals who’re in these same revivals getting attention, though the excess are an issue, are the ones going out & ministering to the poor, feeding the hungry, visiting people in prision, and walking in the power of God/impacting folks for the Lord. Not all, of course…..but there are many and the presence of some bad apples shouldn’t be allowed to represent the rest in the bunch. Have friends and family–like my friend named Mrs.Harris who’s all for what’s going down in Florida Revival and all the kats like Bickle, Todd Bently, Patrica King, etc……and yet, despite how the excess bothers me/needs to be adressed, she does youth work in a detention center/correctional facility. She works with the kids who were the runaways, prostitutes, and ones no one else wishes to work with. She seeks to promote racial renconcilliation, seeing that she’s white and the majority of her girls are black…and though the culture gap makes it hard at times to relate, they still see/appreciate her encouragements/being REAL with them as she’s daily in the trenches praying for them/building them up in the Lord. She and others have prayed over their campus/against things, and many miraculous things have happened in the past 3yrs—from having a very strong WICCAN Prescence on the grounds disappear/dwindle to having more solid Christian Staff come aboard and support from those even in the secular camps because of their astounding work.

    We both have seen healings, wonders, and has been a TREMENDOUS blessing to me in my walk with the Lord Jesus. But again, this isn’t something that seems as common in Black CULTURE as what happens in many of the circles of folks involved at Florida. And many of them I think would benefit from seeing the miraculous/those who’re gifted in working wonders (and if you recall, I believe we discussed this in another thread when I brought up the instances of folks dealing with sin issues being touched by the power of God/Changed—one guy I saw during my tour of “The CALL” in Alabama shared his testimony of how the Power of God freed him of his addictions… http://video.google.com/videosearch?…ny&sitesearch= and I’ve heard/seen personally many others like that which have been a huge blessing to me. But in thinking about the Florida Movement, there are times when I cannot help but wonder “Man, Lord…all of those healings/wonders taking place down there with people apparently being saved—–and I wonder why it’s not happening on the streets where many of these kats may need it most, seeing that we’re preaching the Gospel/TRUTH to them and doing best as we can

    We’re seeking to Beware of hype and exaggeration seeing that J. Lee Grady from Charisma best said said, “some of the language used during the Lakeland Revival has created an almost sideshow atmosphere. People are invited to “Come and get some.” Miracles are supposedly “popping like popcorn.” Organizers tout it as the greatest revival in history.’…….Such brash statements cheapen what the Holy Spirit is doing—and they do a disservice to our brothers and sisters who are experiencing New Testament-style revival in countries such as Iran, China and India. And We have a long way to go before we experience their level of revival. Let’s stay humble and broken before the Lord…..Miracles are awesome. Crowds are great. But miracles and crowds alone don’t guarantee a revival. Multitudes followed Jesus during His ministry on earth, but many of the people who saw the dead raised or ate food that was supernaturally multiplied later crucified the Son of God. It was the few disciples who followed Jesus after Calvary who ushered in a true revival—one that was bathed in the fear of God, confirmed by signs and wonders, tempered by persecution and evidenced by thousands of conversions, new churches and the transformation of society. We should expect nothing less.

    .but man, if they could only see something more to know how REAL YOU ARE AND HOW COOL YOUR POWER TO HEAL/DELIVER IS!!”

    1 Corinthians 2:4
    My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power,
    1 Corinthians 2:3-5 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 2

    Should there come a time when Miraculous Signs and WOnders accompanying the GOSPEL (Acts 14:2-4 (in Context) Acts 14 )

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    LAKELAND, FL: My thoughts….(Part 6)

    Posted by Gabriel (G²) on June 25, 2008

    Regarding the Lakeland, Florida, I’m reminded of something my friend said on the issue:

    Well can you give an honest evaluation of the state of the kids when they came home?

    I went – I didn’t see Todd teaching the worship of angels. It was all about Jesus. The one young woman who went with us was radically impacted for Jesus. Time will tell what fruit has been produced but I was touched by her obvious willingness to share Christ

    Good Thoughts——just like with examining the fruit a tree makes and how it takes time for the full fruit of the tree to be manifest, so it is with movements in the name of the Lord. Only when the fruit’s fully manifested and things can be fully seen can one conclude whether or not they were impacted by God (though on some things, one can tell pretty quickly based on when the Word says “If they do this, that means this…”)”

    Matthew 12
    Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.29″Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.30″He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
    33″Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
    Luke 3:8
    Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

    Luke 6 <H5>A Tree and Its Fruit



    43″No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
    The Wise and Foolish Builders 46″Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice.


    John 15The Vine and the Branches 1″I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

    5″I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

    Galatians 5:17-23
    17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    dEphesians 5:8-108
    For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)

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    LAKELAND, FL: My thoughts….(Part 4)

    Posted by Gabriel (G²) on June 25, 2008

    Cannot reemphasize enough the fact that we’re called to Test the spirits, for many false prophets have gone forth into the world. This was the loving warning of the apostle Paul. But, how do we test the spirits?

    A false prophet is one who proclaims false teaching; therefore we must first examine the teaching of those who claim to have the truth. This is a primary message of the New Testament. False prophets, led by demonic spirits, teach false doctrine.

    God alone can judge the hearts of false teachers. Many are naturally gracious and well-intentioned; they are simply deceived, like Eve who thought forbidden fruit was good for wisdom. So let us refrain from judging them. All we can do is judge their teaching.

    But it is not always easy to discern false teaching, so we have another test: the spiritual practices of the prophets. This is an important message of the Old Testament. False prophets teach false ways—that is, occult ways—to find and know God. Occult ways also seem good for wisdom and can deceive sincere, well-intentioned people, including Christians who do not understand occult spirituality.

    Therefore, beloved, learn how to test the spirits!

    Regarding the issue of false teachings, here’s somewhere folks can start and examine for ourselves. It appears that this teaching is copywrited material, so here’s what I need you to do. Copy this article and compare it with commentary.


    In Bently’s own words:

    In this regard, on three occasions over the past couple of years I’ve had a visitation from the Lord in which I’ve seen the angel of finance. Every time this happens (in our meetings) there is an incredible financial breakthrough—something is opened up in heaven, it invades the earth, and people respond by giving generously. And afterward many testimonies come in to Fresh Fire reporting the abundant blessings that people have received in return!

    Bentley begins by claiming there is a heaven….and that angels exist….and I have to say I agree completely with both of his statements. He next insists there is an “angelic realm in heaven devoted to finances”. He further claims “His angels are on assignment to watch over your finances, to gather money, to gather investments, to bring favor, and to bring power in your life so that you can have favor and wealth”. Bentley further claims to have seen these “angels of finance” at least three times while being “visited by the Lord”.

    There are several instances where angels have appeared to warn (Genesis 19:5) to minister (Matthew 4:11) to reap (Matthew 13:39) to gather (Matthew 13:41), to deliver from prisons like it was with Peter once (Acts 12) and as messengers (Hebrews 2:2) but not to watch over our finances.

    As hard as I try, I can’t find anywhere in God’s Written Word where there is such a thing as an “angel of finance”.—though of course, seeing the myriad of other things they’ve already done for us (not to mention the RADICAL actions they did in the OT, it’s quite possible—if they could be assigned to wipe out nations like it was with Elijah and the Syriaans, finances seem like a peace of cake)

    According to Bentley, he made a Jacob’s ladder (Genesis 28:12) type entrance to heaven and discovered the “treasury room” where he actually describes the finance angel as “having a body like a man with six wings” carrying under his wings “every precious gem you could think of”.

    IMHO, we can give Bentley a bit of wiggle room here with the gems. After all, heaven is paved with streets of gold so maybe every precious gem you can think of is in heaven. What I can’t find mentioned is reference to a “treasury room” located in heaven….even though he claims further down in his teaching article that all of what he says is a “reality of heaven”.

    When Bentley entered the “treasury room”? He allegedly stuffed his pockets with gold coins…and God told him he was “getting the offering”. All this allegedly happened while Bentley was conducting a “meeting” while in a trance. (which are BIBLICAL)
    Reading further into Bentley’s teaching, !

    The rest of the article goes on about getting money and folks receiving “gold teeth”….which seem to be occurring in Lakeland. Again, there isn’t any biblical evidence to support this teaching or these claims (but on the same token, nothing in the Bible speaking AGAINST IT possibly happening—at best, it’s neutral and the FRUIT of it makes the difference).

    There are similar teachings and visions on Bentley’s site that you can examine for yourself.

    Moreover, these are a few of the angels that Todd Bentley claims to have seen:

    Todd Bentley and the Angel of Revelation 10:

    Here you can hear about Todd Bentley’s hallucination while in Seattle of being beamed up (abducted?) through a pillar of fire “portal” to an operating table in heaven with two angels on either side of the table, they saw him in half, his guts pop out, and they stuff him with boxes. Then all his friends go back to the hotel and get caught up into visions (such as skiing on the mountain of the Lord, being consumed by fire, etc.). Then the angel comes in the hotel room and everyone smelled the smoke, which eventually led to the two hotel rooms above them literally burning down a few hours later. Now nobody wants to take a room near Todd Bentley’s room. Todd says it was the angel in Revelation 10. Here is the link:


    Todd Bentley and the Angel called Promise:

    Recently, I had an angel come to me in Kansas City. He said, “Todd, my name is Promise, and I’ve come to bring the fulfillment of God’s promises. I’ve come to bring the fulfillment of the prophetic words spoken to intercessors. I have come for those who have been like Hannah-they have prayed, waited and carried a promise in their hearts. There will come a time when God has heard and I will release the Samuel,” Be encouraged-there is an angel called promise that is involved in bringing your intercessory breakthrough. When this angel comes into my meetings people get breakthrough and answered prayers. Look at the description of this angel in Revelations 8:1-6:
    On certain occasions, the angel of Promise has come into meetings where I was speaking to bring people delayed answers to prayers. In some cases, the very next day, in answer to prayers people have prayed for and waited on for years, breakthrough will come. People will get healed, financial breakthrough will come or miracles will begin to take place.

    Todd Bentley and the Angel called Emma:

    Now let me talk about an angelic experience with Emma. Twice Bob Jones asked me about this angel that was in Kansas City in 1980: “Todd, have you ever seen the angel by the name of Emma?” He asked me as if he expected that this angel was appearing to me. Surprised, I said, “Bob, who is Emma?” He told me that Emma was the angel that helped birth and start the whole prophetic movement in Kansas City in the 1980s. She was a mothering-type angel that helped nurture the prophetic as it broke out. Within a few weeks of Bob asking me about Emma, I was in a service in Beulah, North Dakota. In the middle of the service I was in conversation with Ivan and another person when in walks Emma. As I stared at the angel with open eyes, the Lord said, “Here’s Emma.” I’m not kidding. She floated a couple of inches off the floor. It was almost like Kathryn Khulman in those old videos when she wore a white dress and looked like she was gliding across the platform. Emma appeared beautiful and young-about 22 years old-but she was old at the same time. She seemed to carry the wisdom, virtue and grace of Proverbs 31 on her life.
    She glided into the room, emitting brilliant light and colors. Emma carried these bags and began pulling gold out of them. Then, as she walked up and down the aisles of the church, she began putting gold dust on people. “God, what is happening?” I asked. The Lord answered: “She is releasing the gold, which is both the revelation and the financial breakthrough that I am bringing into this church. I want you to prophecy that Emma showed up in this service-the same angel that appeared in Kansas city-as a sign that I am endorsing and releasing a prophetic spirit in the church.”

    The above quotes can be found here:


    Todd Bentley and the Angel that carries the “Winds of Change”:

    …the second night of the Lakeland meetings…he said he saw an angel he described as carrying the “Winds of Change.”
    Asking him to describe this angel, Bentley replied that those familiar with the life of William Branham would recognize the angel from being a relevant factor in his healing ministry. He felt that this angel’s appearance signaled a “shift in the atmosphere” for the meetings and felt that an openness for revival had been ushered in.

    -Teresa Neumann, Reports of Revival Breaking Out in Lakeland, Florida
    http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=revival&Id=132&pid=954&b id=923

    This is a new youtube clip (from Florida) where Todd Bentley talks about this angel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-nwMfOKgXo

    Todd Bentley and the angel that is going to visit the children:

    At about 7 minutes into the following video clip, Todd Bentley (in Florida) says he saw the angel that is going to visit the children, and he’s only seen this angel two other times:

    Note: At 4 minutes 18 seconds on this same video clip, Todd starts shaking uncontrollably…
    Keep watching…at about 6 minutes he has another episode.

    He prays that a drunken glory will move across the whole place…smoking glory, in all the colours, in the cloud, thick overwhelming honey glory…

    Again, there’s much more besides that…..but these should be enough places to start. Regarding the issue of dreams/visions


    2 Corinthians 12

    Paul’s Vision and His Thorn

    1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—

    That seems to be a good place people can start from in examining things. What was the 3rd heaven like? And what does the WOrd say on dreams and visions? And for that matter, what to make of the MYRIAD of testimonies from persecuted Christians in other countries who’ve experienced visions/DREAMS of their Lord either:

    • Encouraging them in their struggles,

    • Speaking to them on a personal matters regarding themselves or others they should pray for,

    • Alerting them to a vital issue taking place in their communities

    Though SCRIPTURE, rather than experience is the standard, these are testimonies from people truly KEEPING IT REAL FOR CHRIST, as opposed to others who may be questionable. For a good example of this, consider Brother Yun, who is a leader in the Chinese Underground church & describes the visions he had when severely persecuted in his book “The Heavenly Man”

    These are people who are hungry for the Word & who SUBMIT TO IT AS THE FINAL AUTHORITY …… & if I’m not mistaken, I don’t see anywhere in Scripture clearly saying God doesn’t speak in DREAMS/VISIONS on things anymore.

    If anything, it’d seem that Joel 2:28-29 still stands, especially seeing it was said to happen in the last days (Acts 2:14-41), which include all the days between Christ’s first coming & second comings—simply another way of saying “from now on”……& “the great & glorious day of the Lord” (Acts 2:20) denotes the WHOLE CHURCH AGE.

    Don’t get me wrong, for I agree that many of the visions that people claim to have are WAYYYYYY out there.

    But I think it can be dangerous to say “ALL OTHERS (including the ones who are SOLID in their faiths) claiming to see Jesus are liars”, when no one can prove that.

    Dreams/Visions are practical…….There have been many times where others have been experiencing the SAME dreams CONTINUALLY, suggesting things were going on EMOTIONALLY & SPIRITUALLY needing to be dealt with.
    Whether it was a relationship in the family or A sin one needed to deal with, dreams have often been an indicator as to what MIGHT be happening.

    Even PEOPLE in the medical/psychological field will verify this, as the subconscious often expresses itself in one’s dreams.

    In consistently having dreams of the same manner, people have decided to then examine things in their lives (i.e. affairs, relationships, attitudes, etc) & whether or not they were causing their dreams……& AFTER applying biblical principles/promises, they’d consequently learn something from the Lord.

    Again, God can/does speak through dreams…& just because SCRIPTURE has completed everything we need to know about living life from here till ETERNITY doesn’t mean God DOESN’T WORK miracles or use dreams today.

    We SIMPLY cannot conclusively deny the possibility based on Scripture

    If the Spirit of God revealed his will frequently through dreams/visions, there’s nothing wrong believing he couldn’t use them today

    Some have even been led to the gospel through dreams, as what’s occuring QUITE OFTEN in the middle east with Muslims having dreams about a man named “Jesus Christ” or being told to meet someone who tells them of the Gospel.

    As another wisely said on the issue, “In many parts of the world, God seems to be using visions and dreams extensively. In areas where there is little to no Gospel message available, God is taking His message to people directly. This is entirely consistent with the Biblical example of visions being frequently used by God to reveal His truth to people in the early days of Christianity (see the Book of Acts).

    If God desires to communicate His message to a person, He can use whatever means He finds necessary – a missionary, an angel, a vision, a dream, etc. God also, of course, has the ability to give visions in areas where the Gospel message is already readily available. THERE’S NO LIMIT TO WHAT HE CAN DO.”

    The only thing we have to be careful of is the interpretation of visions/dreams.

    If God were to give a vision, it would agree completely with what He’s already REVEALED in His Word…. & moreover, Visions should never be given equal or greater authority than the Word of God.

    Scripture is our ultimate authority for Christian faith and practice…& for one believing they’ve had a vision/dream, they should prayerfully examine the Word of God and what Scripture says CLEARLY about it, asking NOT ONLY THOSE WHO AGREE WITH THEIR INTERPRETATIONS but others who VIEW IT DIFFERENTLY so they’d get things AS ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE.

    Also, one should prayerfully consider what God would have them do with the vision (James 1:5)….for God would not give a vision to a person and then keep the meaning of the vision hidden.

    Scripture shows that whenever a person asked God for the meaning of a vision/DREAMS, God made sure it was explained to the person (see Daniel 8:15-17), whether directly, through an angel, a messenger , circumstance or ANY other method (Genesis 40:5-11; Daniel 2:45; 4:19).

    God always makes sure His messages are clearly understood when He speaks to us…

    To clarify my stance, I UNDERSTAND THAT not all information is God breathed. And emotionally driven dreams that I may have are not of the same type as the dreams of Daniel, Joseph or Paul (the man calling him into another section of Europe, or the visions of Daniel and Cornelius.

    As Dr. James Dobson says, “DREAMS reflect wish fulfillment, giving expression to the things we long for; and secondly, they ventilate anxiety and the stresses we experience during waking hours.” & seeing that certain dreams influenced by our desires/fears, anger, or frustrations….

    I’m certainly NOT for ACCEPTING ALL DREAMS UNCRITICALLY as God inspired.

    As another once wisely said,

    Even if the predictive elements in our dreams come true, that does not necessarily mean they are from God. There is still much to be learned about the mechanism of the mind. Even before the Spirit of God began his permanent indwelling ministry and before the Word of God was completed, God warned about trusting dreams alone. Quote:

    “Let these false prophets tell their dreams and let my true messengers faithfully proclaim my every word. (Jeremiah 23)

    There is a difference between chaff and wheat!” Put your confidence in the wheat of God’s Word, not the chaff of dreams.

    However, that doesn’t mean that the possibility of it still happening is INVALID/s NON-EXISTENT…..or that there are no such things TODAY AS GOD-INSPIRED DREAMS……..

    And with more PRACTICAL reason as well, as the Biblical Model of dreams seems to indicate that even those WITH SCRIPTURE/KNOWING the need to study it experienced DREAMS & VISIONS on things where Scripture was SILENT on SPECIFIC ISSUES/CIRCUMSTANCES…….

    In saying Scripture is all we need for EVERY DIRECTION in life, then what to make of the situations where what they had as an equivalent to doctrine—-the LAW—wasn’t enough at times in CERTAIN SITUATIONS?

    What if he’d simply went by the Scriptures he knew of DIVORCE rather than going by the wisdom God showed him in his dream for a SOLUTION (Matthew 1:20-21)..Or why did God not simply tell Joseph “Go to this Scripture, for it’ll tell you about Pharaohs plan to kill your son”? (Matthew 2:12-22)

    What of Ananias’s vision of God telling him to go MEET PAUL (Acts 9:10-22), or Cornelius’s dream of an ANGEL telling him who to meet, as well as Peter’s so they’d fulfill a VITAL PART OF GOD’S PLAN (Acts 10)

    Why Didn’t Paul simply rely on the Scriptures he knew of regarding the MACEDONIA incident instead of dreams to know what AREA to minister in, simply saying “As long as we’re “going into all the world” as Christ commanded, it’s all good” (Acts 16:6-10)

    …or dismiss the vision he had of an ANGEL encouraging him to alert his men that they’d be safe & that HE’D BE ON TRIAL IN ROME (Acts 27:9-26)?

    All of these examples—minus all the NUMEROUS examples (Genesis 31:4-13, Genesis 31:22-24, Genesis 37:5-10, Genesis 41, Daniel 2-4, & Daniel 7:1, Matthew 27:19)—seem to show that it’s reasonable to expect God-Inspired dreams TODAY…& that God still uses them

    For these are the SAME circumstances many others—ESPECIALLY IN PERSECUTED CHURCHES, as evidenced by ANYONE SERIOUSLY READING “VOICE OF THE MATYRS”—have experienced around the World, including myself since I’ve seen many of these SAME things on Mission trips & in the States NUMEROUS TIMES……

    & to dismiss it doesn’t seem to be anything else but prejudice—– for wisdom is getting ALL THE FACTS (Proverbs 18:13), Being open to NEW IDEAS (Proverbs 18:15), and being willinly to objectively hear both sides of a story before judging (Proverbs 18:17)

    Where does God’s word address who I should preach to today? Where in the scripture does it explain what message Im to preach on Sundays? Im serious, what has changed sense the completion of the New Testament.?

    That’s just my opinion as of now, & I have more thhought on the matter…… but I’d be interested in people’s thoughts on the issue…….

    in line with post, I’d encourage you and others to perhaps investigate OUTSIDE of what’s taking place in America with the Lakeland Revival and see what’s happening all around the world—especially in those areas where it’s MUCH more hostile and one has to either be with the “Saints” or with the “Ain’ts.” For example, there are numerous testimonies of these kinds of things happening all around the world—PATICULARLY in the Chinese Church (which happens to be sending missionaries from their country over here to THE USA NOW—-and Ironically, they seem to be more in touch with the WORKS OF GOD than many CHURCHES IN THE USA are TODAY, )—–& also another is one who writes of his experiences in “The Heavenly Man”— the worldwide best-selling and astonishing story of Brother Yun, one of China’s most dedicated, courageous, and intensely persecuted house church leaders. This novel is a great introduction to persecutions that many fundamentalist Christian Chinese people have faced. Appropriate for adolescents and adults alike.




    Of course, there’s controversy surrounding him as well—-China leaders distance themselves from the heavenly man (Evangelicals Now) My thoughts on the entire ordeal:

    Acts 19
    11God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them. 13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15(One day) the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

    17When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. 18Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. 19A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas.[] 20In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power

    The 7 sons of Sceva tried to cast out demons in Jesus name but were thoroughly beaten.
    However, there was another man who tried it and was successful. He was not a follower of Jesus so the disciples stopped him. But Jesus said, “Don’t stop him, anyone who is not against you is for you.”

    Luke 9:49-50 Now John answered and said “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.” But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.”

    Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.”

    There’s meanings in those words that we need to learn—and IMHO, I believe that even right now, in heaven, Jesus sees a lot of people that we criticize and write off as for Him.

    One kat I know was born again in a boarding house and wasn’t very much exposed to outward influence. They taught themselves scripture and many were insightful but some were very erroneous. Sometimes they simply repeated what we read in some book. Still, God moved powerfully amongst them. The problem they had is that we were less informed. Look at the case of William Branham. Many people would say many things about him; yes he taught gross doctrinal error but, he was sincere in his faith and God did use him to an extent. And the same with slaves back in the day who misinterpreted Scripture—like Nat Turner and His rebellion for example or others like William Seymore.

    I don’t know about you but I have met real sincere christians who exhibit the fruits of the spirit and are sincere in their faith but have a wrong perspective on many parts of scripture. God still uses them. They are still sons of God. We should learn to accept people for who they are first and not what they teach. After we have accepted them then we can consider what they teach—and I’ve believe we discussed this elsewhere too (Mark 16:15-18: Does this still occur & who here is casting out DEMONS TODAY? )

    Bottom line is that you can’t discredit a testimony simply because the testifier teaches or/ and follows erroneous doctrine. It’s not as simple and clear-cut like that. I’m not defending brother Yun but hoping that people would think twice before writing another person off. Erroneous doctrine is bad especially when it’s in important areas of the christian faith but it doesn’t stop God from using someone who is sincere and has made himself available. Connecting things back to Todd Bently, Regarding the ridicule of Todd having to “eat Titus and Hebrews” perhaps one should ridicule John for eating the scroll at the behest of the angel in Revelation. Or, rebuke Ezekiel for eating the scroll, in Ezekiel 3:1. These were some pretty WILD things…

    For those debating going, I think you should give it a shot- actually view the revival for a week and maybe consider going. Some who were against it or cautious went there, and found it to be totally opposite to what many warning against it wrote- the interesting thing is…. you could be using Scripture to fight Scripture- for example in Acts 2, one would probably use the same Matt 7:15 against Acts 2, judging by their tone. But if one wishes to be totally fair and sincere, tune in for a week or two- or even visit (As many do when it comes to their venturing into places considered to be cults like THE JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES/KINGDOM Hall and actually evangelizing people from within. But take care. Don’t take shots at leaders/people who actually seem to have more ‘revival’ (the true Life of Christ), more souls saved, more orphans helped and more widows helped in Africa than many critiquing. For anything less is exactly what Jesus was describing with the “BEAMS/SPECTS” issue—how am I gonna knock someone doing what Christ said here if I’m not doing so as often–if not moreso–than they are, knocking the ways in which they’re being like “salt” while I’m not even close. There was even one person who at one point said this

    Read the rest of this entry »

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    LAKELAND, FL: My thoughts….(Part 3)

    Posted by Gabriel (G²) on June 25, 2008

    When it comes to many saying of Lakeland “The Gospel’s NOT BEING PREACHED THERE, some have said completely different on the issue. One person I interacted with had this to say:


    I was very apprehensive about Bentley. Most of my friends were very surprised when I said – I had left for Florida. I have not been to Brownsville or Toronto. I never travel for ‘eye candy’. I was very apprehensive about ’emma’ and the root of this revival but I’d rather go and have my pride hurt then not go – have my pride intact and miss a move of God. He has always kept me and I put my faith in Him.

    The best thing about Lakeland is that its sooo not about Bentley. Those people going up with testimonies are coming from the crowd. I watched people get out of their wheelchairs. I also saw many try and not. I heard the people hollering “I’m healed” and Jesus got the glory. Not Bentley – in fact I was thinking maybe God was using him bc its pretty hard to think too kindly about someone whose been to jail for child molestation.
    Personally — my friend was healed (powerful) but she has been bogged down in her spirtiual life with unforgiveness for the family that abused her daughter. It is significant for me that she received her healing and while there it was prophecied over her that she would not move in the gifts the Lord had given her until she forgave these people.
    {{she had gone down to pray for a man in a wheelchair and I saw her on the floor crying – when she came back she said “I went to pray for him and he told me my whole life and that she was in unforgiveness”}}
    I wonder how many others are stuck in unforgiveness toward their abusers and having this man touch them sooo powerfully is forcing them to rethink their own walk.
    The most difficult time in my own life was to forgive the person who abused my own daughter. I know that I would not grow in Him until I could get past that.

    I pray, really, that they make sure he does not reoffend and that he too realizes he is not special – that God is using him bc he is nothing. Few people get exposed like this and are then put in this kind of position. He will come under more attack bc he is moving in the Lord then if he just stayed in his own little world.

    Most of us will never know what it is like to walk in ‘His’ power and have the devil go after you with everything he has bc of the work of the Lord. Bentley can expect to be ridiculed and publically humiliated for his past. I would suggest he knows what is coming. The bigger this gets the more likely his past will be all over Fox. CNN, CBS etc etc.
    There is no reason to give the devil the glory for revival, nor do we need to give credit to Bentley – it is a God thing. Bentley or someone else – God will raise up someone but it should always be someone who people won’t think is infallible bc we all know what happens when our eyes get on the man and not on the Lord.

    I have been edified and renewed in my faith, my church is on fire as are others – the Lord is being lifted and men are being drawn to Him, certainly not to Bentley.
    I pray the Lord gives him the strength to endure the trials to come

    The gospel is given – and some teaching. Most of it is about the healings and testimonies. Christ is being glorified for it so I can’t imagine why this particular complaint. Only bc there isn’t enough time to do everything well. The two – three hours that Bentley is on TV are not the whole of what happens. It takes a lot of time to go through the people and get them on stage etc etc. His teaching isn’t memorable. The gospel comes with signs and wonders and Bentley takes no credit. A few times he did things or said things that I thought ut oh! that will be on Youtube. Nothing real bad but he is certainly a character.

    The offering isn’t mentioned until 11:30 (when many 20-25%) have left. There is no hawking CDs and books and few tables. No charge for parking and when the offering is taken there is not a lot of ‘seed talk’. No pushing for money – in fact when Bentley mentioned credit cards – he suggested that people not go into debt.


    Regarding what I do know of the cross being proclaimed, the lady behind this quote  said it best: The whole of what’s happening in the Revival down there isn’t what’s in the clips or on the camera. One of my friends went down there and according to the testimony he gave, the majority of the revivals is the fact that people are witnessing to numerous others on their own time. He went down there to check it out—and though his friends were doing one thing, there were numerous times he and many others went out to tell others who Christ was—Why he came, Why he had to die, His blood being shed, God loving them like John 3:16 says, etc. And then, when people came to the revival, it was already expected that they’d be up to date with things since they’d already been informed. Indeed, Bently has apparently told people what the revival’s not about him and that they don’t need to focus on him—-and for that matter, he even encouraged people to know that unless they went out and witnessed to people about the power of Christ and who He was, there’s no point even coming to the meetings. He also encouraged people to exercise their giftings if they were following the Lord and to pray for one another regarding healings/prophetic words and things. He wanted them to go out and preach the Gospel. My friend also alerted me to the fact that of course many went down there for the WRONG REASONS—-“faking it”, choreographed “slain in the spirit” aND TRYING to work things up…..and that bothered him. Regardless, though, he also made clear that it wasn’t like that for everyone going there—just like with anything, there was a “mixture”–TARES and WHEAT placed together. And one would have to go on a case-by-case basis when examining the issue since many unbelievers have been tripped out/impacted for the Lord. And they all the sincere believers who went down there had their unique stories of the wonderful things the Lord did for them, just as it’s been for me when I went to the “CALL” and from all the wonderful things I’ve witnessed the Lord do in my life that many still may not believe. I’ve brought this up before, if you remember ( #48, #49http://www.christiandiscussionforums…08#post2783108), with the individual who was a homosexual and got impacted by folks like that in Florida–and came to know the Gospel of Jesus saves.

    Moreover, people saw that part of the witnessing was in the fact of telling others of those who had gifts in healings/working wonders and to check it out—-and when they came, seeing things happen out of the ordinary got their attention/tripped them out. Preaching on how Christ came to deal with the physical was apart of opening them up to the Spiritual….and to a degree, that’s how it was with Christ.

    Someone once said this:

    Same old same old why do pple get so excited and run to revivals, when they can have there own revival in there heart ,most of these so called revivals are pure merchandising the anointing I would be careful of such.

    My response: Why did they get excited when Jesus came in town or the apostles? Or flock to him?



    Matthew 14:35-36

    35And when the men of that place recognized Jesus, they sent word to all the surrounding country. People brought all their sick to him 36and begged him to let the sick just touch the edge of his cloak, and all who touched him were healed.


    Matthew 8:13-34

    Jesus Heals Many

    14When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. 15He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him.
    16When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. 17This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
    “He took up our infirmities
    and carried our diseases.”[a]


    Matthew 15:29-31

    Jesus Feeds the Four Thousand

    29Jesus left there and went along the Sea of Galilee. Then he went up on a mountainside and sat down. 30Great crowds came to him, bringing the lame, the blind, the crippled, the mute and many others, and laid them at his feet; and he healed them. 31The people were amazed when they saw the mute speaking, the crippled made well, the lame walking and the blind seeing. And they praised the God of Israel.


    Mark 2

    Jesus Heals a Paralytic

    1A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2So many gathered that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3Some men came, bringing to him a paralytic, carried by four of them. 4Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus and, after digging through it, lowered the mat the paralyzed man was lying on. 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”


    Mark 3:9-14

    9Because of the crowd he told his disciples to have a small boat ready for him, to keep the people from crowding him. 10For he had healed many, so that those with diseases were pushing forward to touch him. 11Whenever the evil[a] spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.” 12But he gave them strict orders not to tell who he was.


    Mark 6:56







    Luke 5

    The Man With Leprosy

    12While Jesus was in one of the towns, a man came along who was covered with leprosy.[a] When he saw Jesus, he fell with his face to the ground and begged him, “Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean.”
    13Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” And immediately the leprosy left him.

    14Then Jesus ordered him, “Don’t tell anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.”

    15Yet the news about him spread all the more, so that crowds of people came to hear him and to be healed of their sicknesses.

    <H5><H3>Luke 6:17-19 </H3>


    Blessings and Woes

    17He went down with them and stood on a level place. A large crowd of his disciples was there and a great number of people from all over Judea, from Jerusalem, and from the coast of Tyre and Sidon, 18who had come to hear him and to be healed of their diseases. Those troubled by evil[a] spirits were cured, 19and the people all tried to touch him, because power was coming from him and healing them all.



    12The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade. 13No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. 14Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. 15As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. 16Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by evil[a] spirits, and all of them were healed.
    The Apostles Persecuted
    </H5></H5></H5><H5>Acts 6

    8Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.


    Acts 8:6-8

    6When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. 7With shrieks, evil[a] spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed. 8So there was great joy in that city.



    Acts 14:3
    So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders.


    8Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. 9But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. 10This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.

    11God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

    13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15(One day) the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

    17When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. 18Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. 19A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas.[d] 20In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power

    When people hear of the miraculous, they naturally flock to wherever it occurs. They’re looking for something real/divine to connect to….and many of them have indeed found that in many revivals (Jonathan Edwards being one of them during the GREAT AWAKENING/OTHER Similar occurances). And seeing that many in the body of CHrist have been specifically gifted in gifts of healings/working wonders and you knew about it, I don’t think it’d be wrong to seek them out and prayerfully be benefited by that gift—–and moreover, regarding manifestations of the SPirit and some being bothered by it if it can’t be found in I Corinthians 12, there were various ways the Spirit showed up in SCRIPTURE and perhaps that can be adressed (: #29 #28 )

    Of course, there needs to be caution since even false prophets can do the same thing (seemingly—though the key in telling the difference is whether or not the prophet’s miracles point one CLOSER TO CHRIST/THE GOSPEL or away—-Deuteronomy 13 & Deuteronomy 18, II Peter 2, Matthew 7, WHICH SAYS BY THEIR FRUIT ONE WILL KNOW THEM AS TRUE OR FALSE).—annd ultimately, PEOPLE’S HEARTS ARE THEIR OWN RESPONSIBILITY, just as it would be if genuine BIBLICAL teaching of the WOrd took place but some in attendance came and didn’t convert. That’s not a reflection on the teaching OR THE teacher 24/7

            Someone, in seeing what I said here, said this elsewhere:
    OK, I can understand that the gospel may be being preached (outside the meetings seemingly) and people getting saved. Great! As far as I am concerned, I have no idea why the meetings headed by false prophets, who condone false prophets, in that case. Why are people not throwing Bentley out, on the basis of what he does say, which is weird and unbiblical, and his frankly unhelpful and uncritical associations with false teachers? Why do they need him, when there are real gospel preachers about? I maintain, its because they want the spectacular, they want to see the floor show and have the experience, regardless of what “brother” Todd is into.

    If I were one of those gospel preachers, I would not want to take the new believers within a 100 miles of a ministry like Bentley’s.

    Glad to see she’s glad that the Gospel’s being preached (and to note, Bently has done the same numerous times also—one of the evangelists who attends the youthcamps I’ve gone to since I was 12 knows Bently personally—had folks on mission trips with him in Africa where the Gospel was preached extensively and many were saved/delivered—and seeing how passionate for the Gospel/consistent the evangelist has been, I take his Word for it. His name’s Jason Kerr…and should you get the chance, look him up).

    Also, to be frank, we may disagree in our views as to what a Biblical Prophet of God may be (and as do many in support of what’s happening in Florida and why they may not automatically view Bently as a Prophet—and though it’s long/I wish not to repeat everything verbatim, you can go here for more info on the issue if you’d like—Can Prophets make Mistakes?? ). In any case, some don’t even view him as a prophet—but simply as somone with the Biblical gift of being able to work miracles/wonders for the Lord like it was with Stephen ( Acts 6 Acts 6:7-9 )or Phillip in Acts 6 and Acts 8 (Acts 8 )

    1 Corinthians 12 1 Corinthians 12:28-30

    28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[a]? Do all interpret?

    John Piper wrote more on the issue here at his website under a thread entitled “Are Signs and Wonders for Today? (which I believe I referenced to you)

    ). Moreover, until I can see concrete evidence that he has denied the ESSENTIALS of the Gospel, I cannot write the man off as an unbeliever or someone not truly of the Lord. Acknowledge where his theology’s off and adress it quickly I can, as well as being discerning in seperating error from fact, but calling him an unbeliever I cannot go that far—no more than I can for YOU/I in any of the areas in our lives and in the lives of Biblical Characters throughout the OT/NT where there has either been sin/error (hidden or blantant). Making mistakes and teaching something one believes to be true but it turns out to be wrong doesn’t automatically qualify one as a false teacher—-otherwise, where does that leave you and I when we’ve done so ourselves (and for that matter, though we’re teaching now, may’ve experienced things and believe things which may be off base? Does that now make us false believers or teachers because of our own error?))

    Again, IMHO, categories of error and the end FRUIT of one=life is what I look at—-and I don’t see enough of what’s described in II Peter 2 in Bently’s life to throw the label of “false teacher” at him without reservation/consideration. But perhaps that’ll change later…

    I asked this before, and it was never adressed…..but I’ll ask again. If I may ask, though, how far would one be willing to take that? Seeing that you like Piper (if I recall, #90 ), they have a conference at his church called “Desiring God 2006 National Conference, to be held on September 29th. This time, they’lll be addressing ‘the Supremacy of Christ in a postmodern world.’….and according to John Piper, founder of the Desiring God ministries, speakers for the national conference are ‘eager to speak on behalf of the risen Lord of the universe, Jesus Christ.’ However, one of the speakers is Mark Driscoll (of Mars Hill Church), who is considered to be one of the emerging church leaders…”……& while Driscoll has has distanced himself from certain emergent leaderss/denounced them as herecticalr(McLaren, Jones, etc.), documentation shows Driscoll is promoting contemplative spirituality…….in the words of the site (Lighthouse Trails Research)

    Contemplative spirituality (i.e., New Age mysticism) is the vehicle that the postmodern world is using to reach their objectives. By including a pro-contemplative speaker at this conference will confuse participants at best and dangerously mislead them spiritually at worst. Rather than bringing Mark Driscoll in as a speaker, his spiritual sympathies towards contemplative should be exposed, and people should be warned.

    According to the Acts 29 Network (Driscoll’s ministry)recommended reading list of “worthy literature” Mark Driscoll recommends books by Richard Foster, Dallas Willard, and a book called The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius. Other books on the list include those by panentheist St. John of the Cross, and a collection of books about Celtic Spirituality (i.e., contemplative spirituality) as well as books by Thomas Merton, Teresa of Avila, Eugene Peterson, and Larry Crabb (AACC). Act 29’s recommendation of Thomas Merton (who said he was impregnated with Sufism: Islamic mysticism)is perhaps the most telling of all. One of the books Driscoll recommends by Merton is Wisdom of the Desert (referring to the desert fathers). Lighthouse Trails Research has contacted Acts 29 in the recent past and told them about these recommended resources and their dangers. As we stated in our previous article:

    For Driscoll to say he has distanced himself from some aspects of the emerging church (or the Emergent leaders) but then advocate Merton and this line up of other avid mystics is an oxymoron.

    The point is, Mark Driscoll is promoting contemplative spirituality, and for someone to say they don’t promote the emerging church but then promote contemplative is faulty thinking because the latter is so much worse – it is contemplative spirituality that makes the emerging church so heretical. Remember, the premise of contemplative is that all paths lead to God and God is within all creation.


    We hope and pray that Mark Driscoll will remove these contemplative recommendations from his website and make a public statement saying that contemplative spirituality is an anti-biblical belief system that he rejects. Otherwise, we pray that John Piper will find someone else to speak at his upcoming conference.

    If Driscoll wasn’t removed from the conference, would you still attend? And if John Piper didn’t remove him (as he hasn’t), Is John Piper NOW A FALSE TEACHER TOO?

    Moreover, what would you make of his being on stage with Beth Moore at the conferences entitled “PASSION” by Louie Giglio, seeing that she has taken some flack for promoting CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER? Would you still support him?

    Or Piper’s appearing with Louie Giglio in support of the Passion Conferences, even though Giglio is apart of North Point Ministries—http://www.northpoint.org/ –and as much of the blessing the church is in many regards, they’re very much supportive of the “Seeker-Friendly” mentality…..and the pastor of the church Andy Stanely has shared the stage with others like Rick Warren, Erwin McManus, Rob Bell and others teaching Herectical and anti-Biblical teachings and
    yet never calling anything out?

    For evidence, http://www.catalystspace.com/events/past.aspx and http://www.creativepastors.com/product_1219 & http://www.exponentialconference.org/

    If difficult, I more than understand….as it’s the same with me and SAM STORMS regarding his mentioning in an interview I heard of folks who’ve most influenced him….with John Piper being at the top of the list due to John’s personal friendship and theological orientation and other old skool folks who were solid like Jonathan Edwards, Calvin, Luther, Owen, the 19th century Princeton theologian, Charles Hodge, 19th century theologian William G. T. Shedd and B. B. Warfield. Others who influenced/blessed him were people like Mike Bickle, Jack Deere, and Wayne Grudem, primarily when it comes to his rejection of cessationism and broader experience of the Holy Spirit (which to a degree I understand since it’s been the same for me)

    Or sincerly speaking, what happens when one goes to the Christian Bookstore to get a good solid book by someone teaching sound theology despite all of the bad ones out there as well? Would buying/investing in one mean that I validate everything the store does and that I should boycott it?

    Take it a step further, and what are we to do with a myriad of individuals who’ve done much to aid the kingdom but seem to be compromising themselves.

    As Lee Strobel said when giving an endorsement for the PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE, “[quote]

    If you only read one book on what life is all about—make it this one! Rick Warren is absolutely brilliant at explaining our real purpose in the world and making the complex understandable. Read this book, then give it to everyone you care about. It is life-changing. Believe me, you’ll never be the same after reading this!” What a gift!”

    Lee Strobel, Author, The Case for Christ

    That grieved me seeing that, but it made me think of something. If I’m against Purpose-Driven movement and yet I’m supporting someone solid like Strobel who supports Warren, am I not now guilty of supporting Purpose Driven because I now have helped support someone connected to it—even if their book has done much to help believers in their walk? And is Lee Strobel now a false teacher because of his association? Or for that matter, folks like James Dobson for some of his associations despite the great work he does with “Focus on the Family” because many MORMONS buy his books/support him financially? If I’m to be consistent with II John 2:7-10, then that makes me think……or folks like “Way of the Master” with Kirk Cameron, Todd Friel, and Ray Comfort because of their associations with TBN/THOSE hosting it—despite how in-depth and frequently they combat false teachings 24/7 and have served to equipp the Body OF CHRIST IN NUMEROUS WAYS? Same with the late James Kennedy, Charles Stanely, and numerous others
           To anyone who thinks that my stance regarding those who are supportative of Bently is being too “nice”, wanted to throw this out there. , on the issue of being “nice”, need to be clear that’s not what I’m advocating (i.e. “niceness” for it’s own sake—-or that equals to being loving). never thought people should try to be “NICE” on the issue…..”NICE” (”dainty”, “attractive”, and “KIND” (having a sympathetic nature”, “considerate”…….what the Bible advocates) are 2 different things…..

    And though the Bible doesn’t advocate “Niceness”, it does promote being “Pleasant” when dealing with issues of correction/dealing with fault:


    Philippians 4:5
    Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.

    1 Timothy 3:2-4
    2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect.
    1 Timothy 6:11
    [ Paul’s Charge to Timothy ] But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.
    1 Timothy 6:10-12 (

    Perhaps it’d be beneficial if the orders/terminology for describing Christian behavior we’ve been given in Scripture on how to relate to others are clearly and Biblically defined so that all are on the same page. Granted, as the Word says plainly,

    “Therefore each of you must put off all falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body.” (Ephesians 4:25)

    For that matter, there’s indeed a TIME and a PLACE for sharp rebuke. But again, I’d maintain what was the OVERALL CHARACTER/TEACHING that Paul was dealing with here in Crete that warranted SHARP REBUKE? Unless that’s clearly identified, using that as a label ineffective. Again, in historical context, there was a specific teaching/group of people that were being dealt with here——and for a good start, Instruction Concerning False Teachers in the Church (Titus 1:10-16), False Teachers) . Also, for that matter,

    Proverbs 12:1
    1 Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
    But he who hates correction is stupid.

    Proverbs 12:15
    15 The way of a fool seems right to him,
    But a wise man listens to advice.

    Proverbs 15:31-33
    31 He who listens to a life-giving rebuke
    will be at home among the wise.
    32 He who ignores discipline despises himself,
    but whoever heeds correction gains understanding.
    33 The fear of the LORD teaches a man wisdom, [a]
    and humility comes before honor.

    Proverbs 16:20
    20 Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers,
    and blessed is he who trusts in the LORD.

    Proverbs 25:12
    12 Like an earring of gold or an ornament of fine gold
    is a wise man’s rebuke to a listening ear.

    Proverbs 27:5-6
    5 Better is open rebuke
    Than hidden love.

    6 Wounds from a friend can be trusted,
    But an enemy multiplies kisses


    “Be completely humble and gentle; being patient, bearing with one another in love…… (Ephesians 4:2)

    No one is ever going to be perfect here on Earth (something seemingly ignored at the moment by many), so we must accept and love other Christians in spite of their faults. Moreover, from what I understand, Concerning faults in fellow believers, we should be HUMBLE (meek…..not self-exalting, smug, rude, proud, condescending, boastful, easily angered ….and everything opposite of what love for Brethren is I Corinthians 13:1-7), patient and gentle with them (John 13:34-35). So, what does it mean to be GENTLE? Or PATIENT? Or LONG-SUFFERING AND HUMBLE?

    Or what to make of this?

    James 3

    Taming the Tongue
    1Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.

    3When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. 4Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. 5Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

    7All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, 8but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

    9With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. 11Can both fresh water and salt[a] water flow from the same spring? 12My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. Two Kinds of Wisdom

    13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition/self, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

    17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.

    Heavenly Versus Demonic Wisdom

    13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

    To be clear again, where do you see in the Word where there was a 100% track record of those being of the Lord not having flaws in their own lives or ministries—-OT or NEW? What of Gideon? Samson? Jehosophat? And numerous others—not to mention Peter (who got it right one moment in acknowledging Christ as He was and then the next being called out when Jesus said in Matthew 16
    Matthew 16:23
    Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”Matthew 16:22-24 (in Context) Matthew 16 —-or the issue with the Judaizers in Galatians 2 where Peter was opposed by Paul? Did that make him SUSPECT to never being of the Lord, sis)
    One kat I know of said this to me:
    . Please note that false prophets are not only those who prophesy what is not going to happen, but those who prophesy correctly (or even wonder workers, who do real wonders) but then lead the people away from the true and living God. (Deuteronomy 13: 1-5). One of the problems with the false prophets today, within the church, is that they have the right language. This is the nature of a wolf, dressed up as a sheep. He says the right kinds of words, but let’s unpick the meaning. Bro Todd speaks about angels, but what kind of angels; heaven, but what kind of heaven; Jesus, but which Jesus?
    Of course we understand that false prophets can deliever true prophecies as well. But for more clarity, See this and let me know what you think….(as it may give more understanding as to where I’;m coming from ( #86 –INCLUDING THE ENTIRE ISSUE WITH DEUTERONOMY 13, plus Deuteronomy 18). Also, regarding wolves, WOLVES PREY ON PEOPLE—-they manipulate, damage, and destroy individuals. That said, it has yet to be made clear how TODD fits the BILL when the fruit of many’s QUITE DIFFERENT from that. Moreover, in line with the characteristcis of what a wolf ULTIMATELYdoes in DENYING/TURNING PEOPLE AWAY FROM THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, how has TODD DONE THIS? This has yet to be made clear, and until that happens, the label may not be warranted.

    To repeat, there needs to be a distinction between INTENTIONALLY LEADING OTHERS ASTRAY FROM THE GOSPEL/TOWARD ONESELF (as a WOLF DOES) and SIMPLY BEING DECIEVCED/INCOMPLETE IN THEIR KNOWLEDGE. If teaching something false is what makes someone a false teacher, then what of the times when we were teaching something that we genuinely believed to be the truth of God’s Word and were sincerly doing so to please the Lord, but later came to realize that what we were teaching wasn’t really what a paticular text meant? Or that the application of what we were teaching was flawed? Again, WHAT DO WE MAKE OF THIS??

    Moreover, Someone once said this to me when it came to the issue of what defines a false teacher/prophet:

    I studied those passages, and in every one of them what seemed more apparent than anything else was not the mere inaccuracy of these men….but their CHARACTER BEHIND THE WORDS

    In Jeremiah 14:13-16, it’s very clear from the text that these prophets were not in the same category of error as Nathan was. Nathan was not accurate in what he said to David the first time (though he honestly may’ve thought, as brother Link pointed out, that perhaps there was no need to consult God and that the Lord was cool), but his mistake in accuracy was sincere and when checked on it, he later went back to the brother/changed his stance. With those prophets, though, they were BLANTANTLY GOING AGAINST THE LORD.

    Like many (though not all, IMHO) of the same “prophets” within the “Prophetic/Apostolic” movement (and I know cause one of my sisters in the Lord is constantly sending me emails from the “Elijah List” ), THESE men were prophesying/saying EXACTLY WHAT THE PEOPLE WANTED TO HEAR. It wasn’t about preaching and teaching what was in line with the standards GOD HAD ALREADY MADE CLEAR but the PEOPLE WERE WILLFULLY IGNORING…..but about what would make everyone happy. Jeremiah was preaching/prophesying according to the WORD OF GOD….and everything he said in the name of the Lord was ALREADY IN LINE WITH THE JUDGEMENTS THE LORD HAD MADE CLEAR repeatedly WOULD HAPPEN TO THE NATION THAT REBELLED AGAINST HIM.

    Deuteronomy 28-31, I Kings 8:22-66, I Kings 9, II Chronicles 6:12-42, II Chronicles 7

    Same thing happened with the myriad of prophets (i.e. Joel, Issaih, Hosea, etc) who basically–even in indicating what was or what was not of God’s heart/agenda for either the moment or the future—said what was in line with the Character of God He already made clear in His law continually (reading a Chronological Bible really helped me see how many of the prophecies given were actually back to back, so the people had no excuse)

    Same with Jeremiah 23, whch seens to indicate very clearly what the signs are of a false prophet. They may appear to speak God’s message but they don’t live according to his principles. They water down God’s message in order to make it more palatable. They encourage their listeners, often subtly, to DISOBEY GOD….and they tend to be arrogant and self serving, appealing to the desires of their audience instead of being true to the Word of God. In my understanding, this is consistent with the standards that God gives for false teachers and prophets in the NT….(II Peter 2), which seemd to focus not soley or even so much on whether or not they said all the right things 24/7 since even false teachers can do that/one can do all of that and still be lost (Matthew 7:21-29, Luke 6:43-49, James 1:29-27), but on the fruit of their ministries….GREED, DISHONESTY, LACK OF HUNGER TO KNOW THE WORD OF GOD, IMMORALITY–ESPECIALLY OF THE SEXUALLY IMMORAL KIND (as often is the case, IMHO, that those who’re seeking the Lord can truly walk in purity), etc…..and seeing that TODD BENTLY has been reported to be speaking against these things numerous times elsewhere and has said things which were equivalents to rebukes Biblical Prophets would’ve given (as well as sponsoring those who do—) that needs to be considered.

    Add in Ezekiel 13

    The people mocked Jeremiah because he brought nothing but NEWs of God’s judgement….but it was the TRUTH REVEALED IN GOD’S LAW (which none took to heart)

    Same thing with Jeremiah 28. Hanniah did more than make a simple mistake in accuracy. God’s people were already in EXILE (with people such as Ezekiel already preaching to them the reason why they’d be….and in the book of II Kings, there were plenty of warnings that the same would happen to them as it did with her sister nation Israel…II Kings 17).

    Hanniah came up with a prophecy EVERYBODY LIKED and that wasn’t consistent with what God had already made clear would happen in the Law when people rebelled. He declared God—despite His people not repenting—would soon bring relief to those in Exile in Bablylon from their problems and oppressors. His words were DECIETFUL and brought a false hope and comfort to the people. Jeremiahs predictions, however, were already coming true…….which again, were already in line with previous relevelation from what they had as the Word.

    He was a true prophet because he spoke and was sold out to the TRUTH. Hanniah, however, was not….and it was REBELLION TO THE LORD. That’s why God got so hot when the prophets were preaching that the Jews would be able to go home soon when the reality was that God had made clear that they needed to hear what they didn’t want to hear—that they were to be DISCIPLINED/ needed to get unpacked and settle down cause they weren’t going nowhere for a GOOD BIT (70 yrs)—-and the false prophets were inciting a false hope to the people and a way out of recieving justice (Jeremiah 29

    IMHO, honest mistakes/error wasn’t the real issue…….and I’ve seen many people who preached solid truth—HOLINESS, THE UGLINESS OF SIN, THE SERIOUSNESS OF GOD’S WRATH AND THE SALVATION THAT IS FOUND IN CHRIST—and even spoken against false teachings/doctrines not rooted in the word that many have done in the Lord’s name—yet there were PLENTY of areas in which they were off. They’ve called out false prophets/teachers and are seeking to build people up in the faith as Jude makes clear…..and are living mightigly for the Lord, but there are many areas in blantant error.

    Many also have given many words prophetically in my life/others that were 100% spot on EVERYTIME. Did they make mistakes? Yes…..and were there times when they thought they heard the Lord on something and spoke it to others but later realized it wasn’t right/repented? Of course……

    But the character of the prophet is more important than his charisma—-
    Hence, that’s why I asked my earlier question of “How is what’s happening in Florida being contrary to the Basic Message of the GOSPEL?” For others have brought this up to me—-and though there are a myriad of false teachings everywhere, does a false teaching equate with a FALSE GOSPEL?

    For those thinking this:
    I’m still trying to understand the good things in the movement.
    If the testimonies of many who were unbelievers coming to know the Lord and be set free by the Gospel—as well as the numerous testimonies given by others–including Caleb, myself in the ones I shared with my friends being healed/delivered and seeing deliverances of many kinds—physical and spiritual–and various folks, I would think that’d speak for itself. But if not, I’d sincerly question whether or not anyone’s truly desiring to look/understand….
    <H3>Acts 5:10-17</H3><H5>The Apostles Heal Many

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    LAKELAND, FL: My thoughts…(Part 2)

    Posted by Gabriel (G²) on June 25, 2008

    Something another said on the issue which I thought was very beneficial (the original author’s words in BLUE….although it
    s on another named Patricia King and Joshua Mills from “EXTREME PROPHETIC”…..but still seems applicable since it ties into things regarding Bently, as seen in the video on Youtube called “Sapphire Dust and Oil From Heaven!”)

    Something another said on the issue which I thought was very beneficial (the original author’s words in BLUE….although it
    s on another named Patricia King and Joshua Mills from “EXTREME PROPHETIC”…..but still seems applicable since it ties into things, as seen in the video on Youtube called “Sapphire Dust and Oil From Heaven!”)

    I beseech you to use caution and discretion when judging these “false” signs and wonders. You cannot quote Matthew 24:24 and then accuse Latter-Rain teachers like Patricia King and Joshua Mills of using “glitter from Wal-Mart” to deceive their followers using “sleight of hand.” There are two problems with this:
    1) If you were to know some folks, as I do, that are involved in this movement, you will realize most of them are not “fakers” but are sincere, genuine, honest, God-loving people (who are sincerely deceived that what they are experiencing is from God). To blanket all of them as being deceivers is not only passing unbiblical judgment, but also serves to strengthen their own “strong delusion” when they “suffer persecution” from the “weaker brethren” (that’s how they perceive us);
    2) Much (not all) of what is now being “manifested” at these neo-prophetic meetings is NOT a cheap stage trick. I also once thought such reports were primarily the result of clever illusion, but after several years’ of ongoing research into these “second generation” signs and wonders (and getting “uninvited” from teaching at a former church due to the pastor’s unwillingness to publish the truth), I’m convinced that much of what is now being “released” in many of these neo-prophetic meetings is the work of deceiving spirits, under the guise of what they call the “manifest presence of God.” Leaders in this movement “seem to know” the gospel, but at the root of many of their “miracles” is a counterfeit Spirit that is building an ecumenical church of Antichrist based on the sensational and experiential (Matthew 7:20-23).

    This is disturbing, but not at all surprising, when you consider that similar “signs” have been happening for centuries under Catholicism and other cults: (tears, oil, gold dust, etc.). Some have been faked, to be sure; others have been unexplained, including “genuine” miracles of healings at various Marian shrines, for example (not Benny-Hinn style, psychosomatic and/or staged “healings”). So, I simply encourage my concerned brothers and sisters in Christ to excercise biblical discernment in love, realizing that genuine believers (not just followers of Oprah and “The Secret”) can and are being deceived by an “angel of light,” which is no laughing matter to be mocked and ridiculed. Instead, we would do well to follow the Apostle Paul’s example:

    “Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears” (Acts 20:31).

    For those of you who research, the roots of the Kingdom-Now movement of which Patricia King is a part, go back to the Latter Rain heresy and other influences of the mid-19th century (but of course extend back to the Garden). One of Patricia King’s friends and co-ministers in the Neo-Apostolic and Neo-Prophetic movement, Todd Bentley, claims he “heals” using the same angel as William Branham (a misogynist and pyramidologist) which Branham acknowledged was NOT the Holy Spirit, and that he could not heal “unless his angel shows up.”
    Increasingly, unholy spirits are indeed appearing thru “portals” at these meetings (as they have been to New Age cultists for decades, as well as to Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White, William Branham, and to pagans in every tribe and culture for millenniums before that). Discerning believers recognize that the messages and manifestations of these spirits parallels the teachings and types of experiences being communicated to and through the New Spirituality movement. To believe that these deceiving spirits (2 Corinthians 11:13-15) only actually appear (in visions, trances, etc.) to non-believers in “cults” is a lie as equally devastating as the messages these deceiving spirits convey.
    If only those outside the church could be deceived, why would our Lord warn us repeatedly, “take heed that no one deceive you” and that “many shall come in my name…and deceive many.” While Jesus certainly knew some would deceive with “glitter from Wal-Mart,” I think he was speaking of something a little more convincing than mere trickery. Which is all the more reason to “prove all things,” pray, study, watch, evangelize, disciple, and above all, to look up.

    There have been (and no doubt, continue to be) many fakes and frauds in certain charismatic circles. But using ridicule and condescension (as is all too popular and easy to do in blogs) to “rebuke” those brothers and sisters who are victims of deception raises several concerns:

    1) your speech is not seasoned with grace (Col 4:5-6), nor is it edifying to the body (Eph 4:29). Considering the principle of rebuking heresy and restoring a brother or sister, you are out of order:

    “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted” (Gal 6:1).






    Again, responding in pride and immaturity to false teaching does a disservice to the discernment community, and only serves to add fuel to the fire for those deceived by this movement.

    2) to clarify again, Matthew 24:24 is not primarily a warning against FRAUDULENT signs and wonders (which would not be truly “great” at all) but spiritual COUNTERFEITS at least on par with those of Pharoah’s magicians (Exodus 7:11).

    3) the noteworthy aspect of increasing reports of supernatural “signs and wonders” (not simply “fakes” and “fools gold”) is that the Lord Christ Jesus warned that such would be a preeminent sign of his soon return (Matthew 24:4).

    4) furthermore, we ought not to be so arrogant as to assume we are exempt from being deceived ourselves (Prov 16:18, 1 Cor 10:12). As an example, consider Simon Peter’s admirable and accurate profession of faith in Matthew 16:16, and then the Lord’s scathing rebuke of him a few verses later (Matthew 16:23).

    4) remember that the Apostle Paul “ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears” (for THREE YEARS!) about the apostasy attacking the church from within (Acts 20:29-31).

    So again, in issuing a biblical rebuke to false teachers within the body, we ought not to ridicule those being deceived any more than we should mock unbelievers on the broad road to destruction—but rather, weep and warn in grief and humility as did the Apostle Paul.

    5) in conclusion, discernment and “judging righteous judgment” (John 7:24) is serious business that requires conviction, courage, accuracy, and maturity; but those who seek only to take careless or unloving potshots need not apply.

    The Apostle Paul speaks to every heart when he writes,






    For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith…. Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits” (Romans 12:3,16).
    With this in mind, Patricia King and her many associates and disciples are certainly in need of loving rebuke and biblical correction, but she and the victims of such “signs” that this movement promotes (whether fakes or demonic counterfeits—and for that matter, even things which may be genuine and point people to Christ) deserve not scorn but Christ-like pity, compassion, and prayers for their understanding, repentance, and deliverance.




    All of that I thought was very much on point. However, someone else had this to say:

    Go and do it then. You have all the Biblical answers seemingly. Bye the way, I disagree with this conclusion. Sometimes, the false teachers and false prophets, do deserve public derision and scorn, from the true men of God. Paul was not gentle with deceivers, neither the apostle John, nor the Lord Jesus. Who was it who said, “Away from me, workers of iniquity, I never knew you?” I forget.

    In addition, what are the “good things” associated with this revival?

    Read the rest of this entry »

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    LAKELAND, FL: My thoughts on it all (Part 1)

    Posted by Gabriel (G²) on June 24, 2008

    To all those who’re charismatic, Before going any further, wanted to give out some links pertaining info that may be beneficial to any of those out there who happen to be Charismatic (most of which are taken from one of the individuals I respect GREATLY in the Lord and his site, http://heatlight.wordpress.com/ )

    WHAT ARE THE RESULTS OF SPIRIT BAPTISM? by Adrian Warnock (and also, in connection with Andrian, consider these online lectures from New Frontiers’ conference in the USA.  NEW FRONTIERS CHURCH LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE.)

    CONVERGENCE (iTunes podcast)- a sermon by Sam Storms on “Reformed Charismatic” theology, with a   s QUESTION AND ANSWERS session available.

    Using our Gifts in Proportion to our Faith part 1 (An excellent sermon on the prophetic, which I found Biblical, balanced, and challenging)

     SUBSEQUENCE, & ARE THE SIGN GIFTS NECESSARY: A DEBATE (2 excellent PDF’s of essays by Jesse Phillips, whose site entitled RESURGENCE is truly one of the GREATEST AROUND). Also, for anyone interested,  Is Prophecy the Same as Preaching (part 1)? & – Prophecy is NOT the Same as Preaching (part 2), which is also by Jesse Phillips at Resurgence and which is basically a marvelous two-part response to TeamPyro on whether, Biblically, Prophecy is the same thing as Preaching— a common Reformed Cessationist argument, flawed as well.

     JOHN OWEN ON THE SPIRITUAL GIFTS. (Intriguing thoughts by J.I. Packer on the issue….though of course,  I do not necessarily agree with it all, but interesting to study it remains nonetheless)

    KNOWING HIM AND KNOWING ABOUT HIM (In other New Frontiers news, Terry Virgo).

    BOOKS ON THE PERSON AND WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (In which Lastly, C.J. Mahaney shares his favorite books on the issue)
    Others from the website:
    too much bloglove to even comment…read, quickly!HOW TO LISTEN TO A SERMON from The Blazing Center

    WHO IS THE KINGDOM FOR from The Gospel-Driven Church

    THE CHARISMATIC QUESTION from Pulpit Magazine

    THE BONDAGE OF GUIDANCE from Together for the Gospel

    THE FAITH THAT ISN’T from Cerulean Sanctum

    HAVING ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER from Challies.com

    and lastly…

    Audio & Video Messages from the Resurgence Conference: TEXT & CONTEXT




    That all said, I’d like to share some of my thoughts on the issue with TODD Bently and what’s taking place in Florida. Whether you’re in or not in the Charismatic Movement, you’ve probably heard of him and the stir that’s being caused by what’s going on down in Florida currently—-and there have been intriguing thoughts on BOTH sides of the issue. Of course, being Charismatic myself and with friends that I have within the movement supporting it (some of whom have gone down to visit themselves), I’ve had to deal with the issue up close/personal. That said said, however, it’s very odd seeing how many claiming for “Standing for TRUTH” have been treating those in support of the movement. Everything from “You IDIOTS!!!” to “SHEEPLE, I’m glad I’m not like you…” and various other deregatory/demeaning phrases have been used—-and personally, the promotion of wrong doesn’t equate with the allowance of another. There’s no where in the Bible, IMHO, that I see room for “friendly fire” on other believers—even if those believers have theology that’s off somewhere.

    II Timothy 2:23-26
    23Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

    What’s in the book’s in the book, regardless of frustrations (and going against that’s sin just as much as any excesses happening down there).—Saying “I’m sick of all this pussyfooting around and skirting around the issues, CALL IT LIKE IT IS—-FEELINGS ARE IRREVELANT!!!!!” doesn’t seem to hold much weight if Paul HIMSELF ADVOCATED it—-and he dealt with more issues EFFECTIVELY than you or I combined. Is it “pussyfooting” being kind, not quarrelsome, gentle with others and graciously answering concerns folks have?

    For that matter,

    John 13:33-35

    34″A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

    Ephesians 4

    Unity in the Body of Christ

    1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    Colossians 3

    12Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

    As John Macarther said in his book “Truth War” (his words in BLUE): delivered (as there are a MYRIAD of Polemic Ministries that do just that—alongside backbitting, sharp sarcasm, lack of graciousness, etc— #151 ). Again, he said very clearly (HIS WORDS IN BLUE):

    Many Christians today are weary of the long war over truth. They are uneasy about whether doctrinal disagreements and divisions are a blight on the spiritual unity of the church and therefore a poor testimony to the World.

    These and similar questions are constantly heard nowadays:

    • “Isn’t it time to set aiside our differences and just love one another?’
    • “Rather than battling people with whom we disagree over various points of doctrine, why not stage a cordial dialouge with them and listen to their ideas?”
    • “Can’t we have a friendly conversation rather than a bitter clash?”
    • “Shouldn’t we be congenial rather than CONTENTIOUS?”
    • “Does the current generation really need to perpetuate the fight over beliefs and ideologies? Or can we at last declare peace and set aside all the debates over doctrine?”

    Of course, there is a legitimate concen in the tone of such question. Scriptures commands us:

    Romans 12:18
    18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
    Hebrews 12:14-15
    Warning Against Refusing God 14Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
    Galatians 5:22-23
    22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    Taken together, these pasages make it clear that what Scripture demands of us is the POLAR OPPOSITE of a CANTANKEROUS ATTITUDE.

    No one who exhibhits the Fruit of the Spirit can possibly take delight in the conflict….So it should be plain that the call to contend for the faith is NOT A LICENSE FOR PURGNACIOUS SPIRITS TO PROMOTE STRIFE DELIBERATELY over INSIGNIGICANT MATTERS.

    That said, for those who have issue with the Florida Revival, I’d like to inquire on some things.

    One: What to make of instances where Jesus seemed to do healings in ways which seemed to be “odd” and what would that look like today?

    Some considerations that have come up from others have been things such as the fact that He did do things which seem straight CRAZY/ODD too (and I wonder if many of us would have issue if preachers HAD instances went around doing these things too, as there seemed to be no logicial reason behind why Jesus did it—-plus the fact that it did INITIALLY seem outright nasty, IMHO):

    John 9
    Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind

    1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

    3″Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. 4As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
    6Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man’s eyes. 7″Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam” (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

    Mark 7:30-56
    The Healing of a Deaf and Mute Man

    31Then Jesus left the vicinity of Tyre and went through Sidon, down to the Sea of Galilee and into the region of the Decapolis.[a] 32There some people brought to him a man who was deaf and could hardly talk, and they begged him to place his hand on the man.

    33After he took him aside, away from the crowd, Jesus put his fingers into the man’s ears. Then he spit and touched the man’s tongue. 34He looked up to heaven and with a deep sigh said to him, “Ephphatha!” (which means, “Be opened!” ). 35At this, the man’s ears were opened, his tongue was loosened and he began to speak plainly.

    36Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone. But the more he did so, the more they kept talking about it. 37People were overwhelmed with amazement. “He has done everything well,” they said. “He even makes the deaf hear and the mute speak.”

    Honestly, if Jesus did something as outrageous as this, that makes some pause at the myriad of other crazy things he could’ve done that the WOrd’s silent upon—-Same thing with other things prophets were called to do that seemed pretty outrageous back in the day, such as another mentioned with the issue of Isaiah and what God called him to do at one point:


    There are various other things prophets of God did back in the day which seemed very radical—from the many things mentioned in the lives of Elijah and ELISHA to numerous others (Agabus included) and perhaps a discussion on how there actions compared with those considered to be prophets/ministers of God today would be beneficial in adressing the movement in Florida….and of course, Spiritual Principles and the test of Godly Fruit is what matters/should be involved too ( #187 ).

    Two: What does a miracle look like? What is a wonder? How should it look EVERYTIME? Is there even a set definition? Moreover, what to make of those who have giftings in working miracles/wonders like Stephen and Phillip did (Acts 6-7:1-5 & Acts 8), AND WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE SAY THEY LOOKED LIKE? Gifts of healings we know about (I Corinthians 12) but wonders aren’t the same thing.
    Seeking Miracles–when in the right context–isn’t a sin (lest the EARLY CHURCH IN ACTS 4 was in sin for asking God to do so—as seen in this should you or anyone else be interested: How Signs and Wonders Helped Add Multitudes to the Lord ..
    (plus the other one entitled “Are Signs and Wonders for Today?”

    What does a miracle look like? What is a wonder? How should it look EVERYTIME? Is there even a set definition? Moreover, what to make of those who have giftings in working miracles/wonders like Stephen and Phillip did (Acts 6-7:1-5 & Acts 8), AND WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE SAY THEY LOOKED LIKE? Gifts of healings we know about (I Corinthians 12) but wonders aren’t the same thing….and from what I researched, a miracle is simply the working of DIVINE ACTS contrary to nature, so that there’s no explanation for the action except that it was by the power of God (Acts 2:22, and other things like turning water to wine, creating FOOD TO MEET PEOPLE’S NEEDS, ascending—plus the miracles the apostles did when they cast out demons in Luke 4:36/Luke 6:18, Luke 9:42, Luke 9:1, Luke 10:17-19, Acts 6:8, Acts 8:7, Acts 13:6-12, Acts 19:14-16

    Three: What to do with the testimonies of those family and friends who are at the revival right now? Of course we have counterfeits—-and as I John 4 says, how are we to test things? If it denies Christ as He is in Character/turns us toward going against the Lord, then it’s not of Him (though by no means does that mean things not EXPLICITLY found in Scripture cannot be tested/automatically fall in the category of ERROR—-what matters is the end-result and fruit in the lives of others, Galatians 5). And ultimately, what is it the Lord will judge us on? Did you love the Lord and did you LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR (Luke 10:25-37, Matthew 25:31-40)? Amazing how many strive over the WOrds of Paul, but rarely will people do so on the Words of Christ like this—which were very simple (Galatians 6:1-10, Hebrews 12:4)..and it can be saddening when it seems the people doing this get lost in the forray/labeled alongside everyone else who may be in error

    “You went to that RevivaL? You CANNOT BE SAVED THEN, seeing how much mess happened there!!!”
    ‘”Look at how messed up/crazy you are? Boy, you’re decieved (of course, I’m not) for thinking that it was God that healed you there and that perhaps there was something genuine…

    May have everything else messed up, but God sees people’s hearts and whether or not they wanted to please Him—and many of the individuals who’re in the same revivals getting attention, though the excess’s an issue, are the ones going out & ministering to the poor, feeding the hungry, visiting people in prision, and walking in the power of God/impacting folks for the Lord. Not all, of course…..but there are many and the presence of some bad apples shouldn’t be allowed to represent the rest in the bunch (i.e. because there may be false signs and wonders in a movement, that must mean there were never any at all or that others seeking them didn’t do so with a right heart because many others didn’t). Have friends and family–like my friend named Mrs.Harris who’s all for what’s going down in Florida Revival and all the kats like Bickle, Todd Bently, Patrica King, etc……

    and yet, despite how the excess bothers me/needs to be adressed, I’m not going to deny her heart for the Lord since she does youth work in a detention center/correctional facility. She works with the kids who were the runaways, prostitutes, and ones no one else wishes to work with. And she’s daily in the trenches praying for them/encouraging them in the Lord. She and others have prayed over their campus/against things, and many miraculous things have happened in the past 3yrs—from having a very strong WICCAN Prescence on the grounds to having more solid Christian Staff come aboard and support from those even in the secular camps because of their astounding work. We both have seen healings, wonders, and has been a TREMENDOUS blessing to me in my walk with the Lord Jesus. Other friends I have witness others they’ve prayed for years on and seeing them come to the Lord. One of my friends was a hard-core ROCK STAR—HEAVILY INVOLVED IN DRUGS AND THE OCCULT—but God radically changed His life around and when he saw the power of God, he knew the Lord was REAL AND HAS BEEN PASSIONATELY SEEKING THE LORD/EVANGELISING PEOPLE FOR THE KINGDOM.

    He’s in FLORIDA right now at the Todd Bently gig—and that bothers me (alongside other things), but am I now going to write him off as an unbeliever? Same with my friend at the youth detention center. Must I write her off as somehow not saved or a lesser Christian than those speaking against the things she supports which may be error? Where do I have the right?

    For people on both sides of the issue, this may aid in speeding things along

    <H5>Isaiah 20


    Due to the complex nature of things at times, ONE can’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. THERE’s actually a pretty solid website that deals with this very issue of herectical/abberational teachings. I’ve referenced it many times and it has been a tremendous blessing to me in not being sloppy in discerning issues, entitled http://www.apologeticsindex.org/d01.html & Defining Orthodoxy and Heresy. Many of the things taking place down there need to be ADRESSED (paticularly, teachings deviating from the Word of God). And of course, discernement’s needed—-check every word against the Word of God, in honor of what God’s word has said on accepting what is true, and rejecting what is false—-take the Good, reject the bad (, 1 Thessalonians 5:18-22, Hebrews 5:11-17, Proverbs 14:15, Proverbs 19:2, Proverbs 18:13, Proverbs 18:15, Proverbs 18:17 ), and do as the Bereans did with Paul, as a preacher who gives God’s true message will never contradict or explain away anything that’s found in the Word (Acts 17:10-11)—and if in errror, they’ll repent when graciously confronted on it. And if it doesn’t acknowledge CHrist (I John 4), roll on…….

    Here are some other things which have come to my attention which may be beneficial to discuss regarding the revival. One of them being that IF THE GOSPEL’S BEING PREACHED, THAT MUCH I CAN REJOICE IN (Philippians 1:15-18), regardless of whether or not there’s excess, wrong motives, or anything else….so how does that relate to FLORIDA? How is the Gospel of Christ not being preached there currently? Or false conversions taking place?

    The Bible speaks plainly about lying signs and wonders—-but IN CONTEXT, they were signs/wonders to support people going AGAINST THE GOSPEL (Romans 1:16-17, Titus 3:1-8, I Corinthians 15, II John 1:7-10, etc). If Christ and Him crucified isn’t being preahed, or there’s a lack of emphasis on the seriousness of sin/the need for repentance and Holy Living, or the need to evangelize the Lost isn’t made clear, it’s not of God.

    For example, II Thessalonians 2 is about signs and wonders for the purpose of supporting that which goes contrary to the message of SALVATION IN CHRIST/SUBMISSION TO CHRIST AND HATRED 4 SIN (like it was in Galatians 1-3). It’s the same thing that happened with Ahab, whose false prophets God used to tell him exactly what he desired to hear because he hated TRUTH/SUBMITTING TO GOD through the voice of the true prophets (seeing that they spoke against the idolatry of the land/SEXUAL MISCONDUCT that CAME WITH BAAL WORSHIP and other issues, 2 Chronicles 18, I Kings 18-19, I Kings 16:29-33, I Kings 21). Same thing similar in Romans 1:18-32, where God gives one over to deception when they refuse to sumbit to the call of REPENTANCE BEFORE HIM DUE TO THE REALITY OF WHO HE IS. The anti-christ is 100% against that…….That was the purpose of the anti-christ and other false teachers who’d rise up in the last days. And for a specific description of the issue, II Timothy 3-4 is an great place to start.

    THAT said, Have those believers believing Florida to be valid not love the Lord and are they denying the ESSENTIALS of the GOSPEL? Even for folks who haven’t gone to these meetings, does their believing it to be a non-issue mean they’re not faithful to love the Lord and to LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR (Luke 10:25-37, Matthew 25:31-40)? Or that they’re not faithful to this


    James 1
    27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

    Also, something else which has been brought to my attention is the following:

    Whoever Is Not Against Us Is for Us /Mark 9:38-41

    38″Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

    39″Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

    In this case, Jesus was saying that neutrality toward Him was possible…..but nevertheless, his followers will not all resemble each other or belong to the same groups. People who are on Jesus’s side have the same goal of building up the kingdom of God and they should not let their differences interfere (providing those differences aren’t essential). Those who share a common faith in Christ should be cooperated with…….& People don’t have to be just like us to be following Jesus with us.

    This, however, is often not the case. The same thing can be seen whenever people try to call out the issue of rebellion/EXCESS seen much on TBN…..and yet people from differing camps who don’t hold to his doctrinal stances completely shut him down….along with others who aren’t from the same camps as they are (i.e. you’re Charismatic, I’m Cessationist/Conservative….and therefore, even when you recognize an issue, I refuse to support you and will blast you instead”….”Because you believe some of things in Word-Of-Faith are valid, that means you support EVERYTHING within it that’s unbiblical and I CAN’T JOIN FORCES WITH YOU)

    Often times, people’s reactions against them seemed akin to the disciples, who were jealous. Prior to them seeing the man cast out a demon, nine of them together had been unable to drive out a single spirit (Matthew 17:14-21, Luke 9:37-43, Mark 9:14-29)….but when they saw one man who was not of their group driving out demons, they told him to stop. Some believe that our pride is hurt where somone else succedds where we have failed…..and are of the stance that Jesus says there is no room for such jealously in the spiritual warefare of His kingdom—that we should Share Jesus’ss open arems attitude to Christian Workers outside your group…..and when people come to Christ, rejoice.

    Additionally, many question how effective we can be in destroying the Works of the Enemy when it seems in the Christian World the Kingdom’s divided….recently, a post was placed up where a young man was fearful for the teens in his youthgroup.. However, there are many teenagers who often feel that what the church has to offer seems of little value to what happens in the world when it seems they have rebellion against the Lord on their own—just on a different wavelength (i.e. backbitting, slander, gossip, insulting, divisiveness, party spirit/exclusivism such as “I’m of Paul”, “I’m of Apollos” like I Corinthians 3, I Corinthians 1:10-31/ 1 Corinthians 1 and an unwillingness to KEEP THE MAIN THING THE MAIN THING,, which is the Centrality of CHrist)

    Even in the event that false teachers are involved in Florida currently, it was brought to my attention that God’s IN CONTROL and able to SOVEREIGNLY use whoever he wills—-just like he has done in choosing to use TBN despite the myriad of false teachings to bring others the basic components of the Gospel/real life principle—or just like a sorcerer like Balaam being available for God’s use in proclaiming truth/blessing over the Israelites in Numbers 20-24—that is, as much as He used wicked Pharaoh to accomplish His will in Egypt (Exodus 10:1), surely He could do the same with a WOLF to some degree (Proverbs 16:4, John 11:45-51)

    For those in support of the Florida Revival, thought it’d be benefical to throw this out there regarding what a real revival does:


    The Toronto-related activities were not different in kind than what Finney or Spurgeon or Edwards saw in their times. However, the mark of those great revivals was not the signs and wonders. Those revivals became famous for the way they changed every aspect of the lives of those who came forward. Their new-found faith was manifested :

    • in the way they spent their money,
    • in the way they raised their children,
    • in their concern for the poor,
    • in their opposition to slavery;
    • in their rejection of drunkenness, and sex outside of marriage,
    • in their support of the public rights of women;
    • in their business practices and public administrations,
    • when they are turning away from their own evils;
    • in their community-building activities,

    and so on. By changing lives, those revivals affected the whole nation, both believers and unbelievers. By that standard, the great number of people in the Blessing should have made a much greater impact.

    That said, for those attending the Revival down there, what to make of those individuals who’re doing those paticular things—despite the “crazies” who’re involved as well? Also, for those supporting it, is the revival causing the community in general to be impacted toward loving the Lord more and change in EVERY AREA OF LIFE?

    To be clear, regarding any false teachings happening at the revival that are going unoticed, these need to be adressed.—And regarding what those teachings are, how to renconcile those with the Word of God? If they were seen, would you be willing to point them out?

    I believe I have go with the words of The Lord Jesus Christ on this topic

    Of course, many may bring up this:

    Mark 16:17-18

    17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

    However, this has been used in justification of MANY things—from churches celebrating snake handling to numerous errors in many “Word of Faith” circles saying unless someone ALWAYS GETS HEALED WHEN SOMEONE PRAYS FOR YOU, you’re out of step with God. And where Scripture’s taken out of context/used in a way resulting in folks being damaged, People cannot afford to be silent:

    As another brother in the Lord said on the issue

    e, In the charismatic world is a code of silence much like that in the Mafia – if he’s one of ‘us’ (speaks in tongues, prohesies, heals, etc), he’s right. If the guy is John MacArthur, it doesn’t matter that he pastors a larger church than most charismatics – since he’s a cessationist, he’s automatically wrong ON ALL OTHER ISSUES. Compare Mac and Crouch on a doctrinal issue- and virtually all charismatics will still side with Crouch – and those who don’t will keep their mouths shut.

    I could no longer tolerate the aiding and abetting that silence enabled. …

    To that I say amen. Silence is something we can no longer afford…..and of course, there’s a way to do battle

    . Jude 1:17-23
    A call to persevere

    17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

    20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
    22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

    Some people are more thick-headed than others and need a forthright approach. Others may not. In reading John Macarther’s “The Truth War” book, that was one of the things which was greatly emphasizes (as well as here where he re-wrote some of the same things, I believe—). In reading Jude 1:17-23, it’s clear that the Deceived VARY in class…… & remembering this is VITAL when dealing with apostasy/cultic groups, IMHO.

    What often happens is that many choose the “ONE SIZE FITS ALL” approach by labeling EVERYONE/EVERY SITUATION the same (as well as the fact that many will attempt contending for the faith & forget to PRAY/BE IN LINE WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD, much like a soldier going out into battle based on some instructions his commander gave him but never making certain that the commands his commader gave in one situation are the same he wishes for the next….or never studying the battle to see what weapons would be appropiate and using whatever he wishes)……& that’s dangerous in our battle to contend for the faith.

    Many kats I know of testified readily that when in cults, it was individuals doing that actually served as means through which the enemy could keep them further entrenched in deception….personally, I can’t imagine how it would’ve looked like when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus and treating him the same as all the other Pharisees in Matthew 23 simply because there were false teachings among the Pharisees & Nicodemus was one himself (as well as a believer—alongside others who were Pharisees, John 3:1, John 7:50, John 19:39, Mark 15:43, Luke 13:30-31, Luke 23:51, John 19:38, Acts 5:34 Acts 15:4-6, etc)—– and the same thing goes for what the Word of God says about judging (, #145 , #147 ).Moreover,

    Ecclesiastes 7:8-9
    8 The end of a matter is better than its beginning,
    and patience is better than pride. 9 Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit,
    for anger resides in the lap of fools.

    Ephesians 4:29-30, Ephesians 4:1-7, ((http://www.christiandiscussionforums…ad.php?t=93785, ……specifically in post # 5 ABOUT the Church of Ephesus which had lost it’s first love despite how they were fighting against false teachers/showing ZERO Tolerance for them..and discussed this here too, Colossians 3 and Ephesians 4:18-33, Ephesians 5:1-2),)

    Proverbs 15:1
    Proverbs 25:15 Matthew 5:3-10, James 3:13-18)
    Ecclesiastes 10:4

    Someone I was dialouging with once said this on the issue:

    Can you imagine Jesus telling His followers to look for good in the Pharisees church. Instead he said to be careful of the leaven of the Pharisees.

    In being Scripturallty FAITFUL, though, he also MADE EXPLICITLY CLEAR HERE:

    Matthew 23:1-12.

    The Pharisses were doing many wrong things and promoting many wrong teachings/intrepretations of Scripture……..but despite the extra-biblical traditions and practices,hat was Jesus’s Solution? Ignore/not acknowledge what they did that was true becasue of the wrong actions they committed?

    No, before denoucing them/calling out what they did bad, what Jesus did was simply warn them to do as they say in the RIGHT THINGS they were teaching but ignore/avoid the wrong applications/styles they were doing them in. (Matthew 23:3-4).

    “Observe and do all they tell you to do, but do not do accordiing to their works……”

    In other words, insofar as it accords with the Word of God/TRUTH, DON’T DISOWN IT BECAUSE OF THE SOURCE (Hyproctical people), but do it.

    The “teachings/yeast of the pharises””That was something adressed previously in another thread regarding the specific context of what Jesus was talking about, so as to harmonize with the whole of God’s Word —alongside much of dealing with the stereotype of what Pharisees were in that thread,, seeing that the teachings/actions denounced by Christ in Matthew 23 weren’t symbolic of ALL THAT THE PHARISEES WERE—as there were many who did differently)

    I used to be involved in circles where much false teaching took place as well, specifically, extreme WORD-OF-FAITH and MUCH OF WHAT YOU SEE ON TBN with PROSPERITY GOSPEL. If someone had told me then that “Creflo, Copeland, Jakes…they’re deciving you!!!”, I would’ve either blown it off or been very hesitant to believe the accusations. Moreover, I would’ve believed that they were bein g unfair in what they said and that the paticular ministers were truly “GOD’S ANOINTED” and were doing much good work for the KINGDOM

    What it took to deliver me, as well as many others, was for someone to not simply tell me that the organization itself was wrong or that it’s ministers were off, but for them to go step by step through the things Creflo or others were saying and examine their doctrine for what it was—the GOOD that should be KEPT and the BAD that should be TOSSED (II Timothy 2:18-26, . That’s how it is for many involved in cults—whether Mormomns (who people get confused on numerous times seeing how much they’re centered on family values/good works and people wonder “Well, the Bible does support that….”), JW, Christian Science, Bahai, and a host of others one can come up with.

    Basically, the idea of having that Berean mentality in evaluating sermon/teachings, regardless of the source or whether they may come from a HERECTICAL group or even one that may be considered ORTHODOX (as it was with Paul and the Bereans), we opened Scripture (and tested the fruit of it) for ourselves and searched to verify or disprove the message we heard…..

    Acts 17:11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

    And If we are indeed the “royal priesthood” that we are described as, then our job description includes the command of Ezekiel 44:23,

    “They are to teach my people the difference between the holy and the common and show them how to distinguish between the unclean and the clean.”

    I pray that anything I’ve offered on the issue has been of service to anyone here—-whether to those for or against the Florida Movement…..

    and there’s no justification biblically with throwing out the baby with the bathwater if we’re to be BIBLICALLY faithful. Again, getting hot/in a tit-for tat with someome about it isn’t going to solve anything. ANYONE CAN RANT—-but patiently leading someone out of error’s another thing. And as there have numerous testimonies of folks who HAVE BEEN LED out of error by following II TImothy 2:23-26 BECAUSE of consideration in listening to their concerns/kindly answering their questions (as many of the things I’ve brought up are valid issues people have been having and want adressed—-but people speak right past them and folks are still confused). Where in the Word is there ever room for obnoxious or sloppiness? There shouldn’t be a problem. One can speak in a way which acknowledges something in a movement they see as valid without supporting the movement itself.

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    Book Review: “The Untold Story of the NT”

    Posted by Gabriel (G²) on June 23, 2008

    and should someone hit up somewhere like this, http://www.hccentral.com/fresour.html, they should be able to find most of the books that Viola referred to in his writings in PAGAN Christianity). One of the books I know of by Viola which was very intriguing/recommened to me was one by this name:

    As others have said about it,

    WOW! Wonderful book! If you have been confused on how the NT fits together and what the context, situation, occasion and purpose behind the writing of the NT letters then you’ve got to read this book! I wish this book would have been around years ago. Every Believer should read this book!
    5 out of 5 stars
    Viola’s epic volume “The Untold Story of the New Testament Church” is absolutely the best little guide to understanding the order of events in the life of the first-century ekklesia! Viola relies on the scholarship of F.F. Bruce, Donald Guthrie, and A.T. Robinson for the dating of the books. He wonderfully weaves together the book of Acts with the Epistles to create one amazing story. Viola follows the story of the church according to Acts and successfully places the epistles in their historical-cultural context. Enabling the reader to better apply the Scriptures to their life. The New Testament comes alive in movie form as Viola uses some of the best N.T. scholarship to reassemble the entire story of the church as it happened in the beginning! I found that this book was able to give me deep insight into the lives and the circumstances behind the writings of the letters of the Apostles. Viola helps the reader along with his use of maps and background information on people and places. His book is easy to read. You follow his graphic retelling of Acts and stop to read an epistle at every point in time the book was believed to have been written. His book is fluid and he makes little to no assumptions about the chronology of the events. I connected with Paul’s trials and tribulations in ways I never had before. Many times I had to stop reading just to reflect on the sufferings of Paul and ask myself if I could have endured what he endured. From the conflict and turmoil of the immature and immoral at Corinth… to the Judaizers and “super apostles” who opposed Paul at every turn… you will not want to stop reading until the story is complete. However, as Viola points out, the story is not complete. The Bride of Christ is still in a battle bewteen good and evil. The story of the early church is a reminder of the trials that are inevitable for the Christian. Yet… the Bride will endure and will persevere unto the end.
    I have been a Christian since I was a child and grew up learning the stories of the Bible. It is only after reading this book that my entire view of scripture has been re-adjusted and changed. The Bible is now a living book for me. For the first time I actually feel like I undertand Paul’s letters. I just read the reviews and am unsure why Amazon put that critical review as the spotlight especially when there have been so many positive reviews on this book. I too have read Gene Edwards and this book is nothing like them. If you want to understand Paul’s letters this is the book to get.


    Should anyone get the chance, it should be a good read ( as it deals with many of the issues folks don’t think of, such as how the NT Epistles weren’t written in CHAPTER/VERSE and why having it as such takes out much of the story it conveys as well as leading to a “compartmentalization” mentality where people will read with a “paragraph” mentality/isolate certain verses to make cases on issues instead of with a “letter” mentality realizing that only by reading something IN IT’S ENTIRETY/FROM START to FINISH can context and proper understanding of the author’s intent be seen).

          Again, One cannot read the Scriptures with a PARAGRAPH mentality/isolating texts outside of the overall contexts of the messages which were given and their flow/historical background……and the fact of the matter is that they were letters spoken to specific people where there was establisment of relationship given. For a practical example, one can go here to start (which is a previous thread I wrote on the issue and that may be beneficial–RELATIONSHIP/LOVE: The Missing FACTOR REGARDING ADRESSING MATTERS OF FAITH/DOCTRINE (Part 1) ). Regarding scriptural warnings, None of those warnings were given BY THEMSELVES, as there were other factors at play (i.e the Galatians being “bewitched” and Paul appealing to them not ONLY by preaching against false doctrine but reminding them of the FELLOWSHIP THEY ONCE had in Galatians 4……for Paul FOUNDED churches in the southern Galatian Cities of Antioch, Iconium, Lystra, and Derbe in Acts 13:14-14:23…..with Paul churches having been founded prior to Paul’s first missionary journey before council met in Acts 15…and didn’t return to visit northern Galatia until AFTER the council in Acts 16:6

    Paul wrote in the context of the Judaizers undermining the central NT doctrine of justification by faith alone, for they ignored the EXPRESS DECREE OF THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL (Acts 15:23-29) and spread their teachings that the Gentiles must first become Jewish proselytes and submit to the MOASIC LAW COMPLETELY before being Christiajs (Galatians 1:7, Galatians 4:17-21, Galatians 5:2-12, Galatians 6:12-13). Shocked by the Galatians openess to damming heresy (Galatians 1:6), Paul wrote the letter defending justification and warning the churches of the dire consequences of abandoning it….but again, where was that said by him APART FROM RELATIONSHIP?

    Galatians 412I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. 13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

    17Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may be zealous for them. 18It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. 19My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!

    Bible.org: Paul Gets Personal(Galatians 4:12-20)

    Please Read the article first before responding, if you’d like to respond back. Do you call people “children” whom you have no relationship with (AND NOte, the same wording’s used elsewhere with the apostle John when talking to the churches he began….I John 2:1, I John 2:18-28, I John 3:18, I John 4:4, I John 5:21)? And for those wanting to denounc heresy like Paul because he set the example, why so much resistance to accept/do what he did previously with this event? Contrary to the evil motives of the Judaizers to win recognition for themselves/exclude the Galatians from God’s Gracious slavation, when they interacted with the Galatians (Galatians 3:1, Galatians 2:6-16), did Paul not reference back to how he conducted himself PREVIOUSLY as a means of winning them back by showing how he sought to bring the Galatians to Christlikeness with salvation being the Goal? (Romans 8:29)? Add to that Acts 13:5 and Galatians 2:7, where he HUNG OUT with them the Gentiles as well in the synagouges. Did he not sit with them

    Of course no one would say we cannot do what they say/warn because we don’t have a relationship to them, but in following THEIR EXAMPLE when they were relating to others, we’re to do the same when we’re relating to others–warning but also forming AND establishing RELATIONSHIPS (prior to and during). 

    And whether folks wish to deny it or not, RELATIONSHIP WAS ESTABLISHED WITH THE PEOPLE THEY WERE TALKING TO AND IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE. For history’s sake, when people wish to quote Titus 1:10-16 and say “I’m doing like PAUL CALLING IT LIKE IT WAS/FOLLOWING HIS EXAMPLE”, that’s inaccurate..

    Titus had accompanied Paul and Barnabas years earlier to the Council of Jerusalem where the heresy of the Judaizers was present (Acts 15, Galatians 2:1-5). And Crete had already been briefly visited by Paul on his voyage to Rome (Acts 27:7-9, Acts 27:12-13, Acts 27:21). He returned there for ministry and later left Titus there to continue the work, much as he left Timothy at Ephesus (I Timothy 1:3), while he went to Macedonia. So the man had been around a good bit

    That cannot be denied nor is it bending over backward, unless the Scriptures/HISTORY in which they took place where PAUL INVESTED IN PEOPLE are to be seen differently and we’re NOT to follow his or others examples. When they spoke, it wasn’t as many discernment ministries do today demanding that they be heard but they don’t open themselves up to inquiry or get involved in the lives of those looking to them…or where they as PARA-CHURCH ministries try to take the authority of instructing others who often rely SOLEY ON THEM for info but never get plugged into a local fellowship where the info was to primarily be found/implemeneted and taught there because people KNOW YOU.

     How long was it before Paul decided to rebuke the CORINTHIANS in I Corinthians 5? Two years at max…..(and even in I Corinthians, was SHARP REBUKE FOR BAD TEACHING/ACTION IN I Corinthians 5 all he did? Did he not also THANK GOD FOR THEM AND THEIR FELLOWSHIP WHEN HE WROTE in I Corinthians 1? And in Acts 18-19 (read Chronological Bible), with him being in Ephesus and in the MIDST OF THOSE he spoke to for 2 years reasoning/discipling (Acts 19:7-10) (the same place where the Church was established that TIMOTHY WAS LEFT TO HANDLE when Paul had revisited Ephesus after being released from Roman Imprisioment, Acts 28:30—On I Timothy 1 dealing with False teachers (And by connection with II Timothy 2). Without the proper background/actions in place, the commands become less than effective.


               Anyhow, pray that Viola’ s Book blesses you as it has me!!!!! And that you’d see the NT in an entirely NEW WAY…L

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