EMISSARY^7 (G²)

COMMISIONED by CHRIST 4 SHARING HIS LIFE/KEEPING IT REAL ADMIST THE LIES (II Cor. 5:17-21))

BOASTING: When and WHERE IS IT BIBLICAL???

Posted by Gabriel (G²) on February 14, 2008

To anyone concerned,

 Recently I was involved in a discussion forum regarding WORD-OF FAITH……which I have bn involved with for a good while now,,,,but I stopped going for months due to how it seemed that there was nothing but constant arguing/back & forth AS OPPSOSED to honest discussion that leads to wisdom . One of the posters on this site decided to make a post that really bothered me. The following is a re-visiting of this dialouge and what was said word for word. If anyone has any thoughts, love to hear.

Moving on, this is the initial thread that started things (with many other threads like it). This is what it said:

 Word Faith Forum – RIP (Redacted)


Word Faith Forum – R.I.P.The Word Faith Forum can now be considered dead. The Word Faith Apologists have come and gone.Greg Huestis (Debtfree)
Troy Edwards (Victoryword)
Joe McIntyre
Chad Marinelli
Jehu
Bobber
TBeachiehirling
ABlessedMan
Slyzer
PaulAdom
Mikey1967

Each has been unable to overcome this forum with the word of their testimony. Their confessions have fallen down due to their lack of faith. Each has gone off in to Word Faith forums elsewhere that are friendly to their folly. They were unable to move the sand from my window sill and therefore could not cast the mountain in to the sea.The fence sitters are no better off. Having only murked up the waters, they too have gone only to pop in on occasion for some guerilla warfare:BobCarrabio
JesusFreak###
Shinja

At long last, it has been the Orthodox who had prevailed against both the Heterodox Word Faith types and the Heretical Word Faith types:

James the Great
Tallen the Magnificent
Maestroh the Apologist
Travelah the Wise
Yodas_Prodigy the Persistent

        
In response, one of the individuals listed spoke up in defense saying this:
First, I don’t consider myself Wof at least not in the sense spoken of on these boards. But I find myself from time to time agreeing with Wof and disagreeing with the masses. I have and have shown here though that I am open to discussing these things and from time to time have been persuded to change my thinking. Hopefully we can all be this way as to not be so closed to think that we alone have the truth and can never be off.Second, I don’t think most have given up, rather they tired of revisiting the same arguements that never are resolved.

__________________
To that, I heartidly agreed. In response, I said this:
 Agreed, Brah. Your experience has been what I’ve had exact…… (though I’m still wondering where I’d fit in). And to be frank, I tend to wonder what to make still of the general boasting done by all sides (though paticularly the opposing side against Word of Faith). When I saw the thread, part of me couldn’t help but wonder “Unless these guys talk to each other on the phone, get along well, respect one another, and understand the humor, why in the world was the thread placed up?”To a common passer-by, it’d immediately seem as if everyone was boasting of themselves as if the goal was a battle of wits/intelligence…..which goes SMACK DAB AGAINST the wisdom of God we’ve been challenged to uphold.

Quote:
Colossians 3:10-1412Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Quote:
<H3>2 Timothy 2:23-27

Quote:
23Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

</H3>

Quote:
James 3:13-18 Two Kinds of Wisdom 13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.

Perhaps I’m off, but part of me honestly is still wondering whether or not people watching the thread could name all of the folks in the roster as ones who were not for quarrelin—–or men who were HUMBLE/MEEK and gracious toward one another…….as well as IMPARTIAL (as there were many discussions where it seemed both sides did not weigh things correctly but always placed more emphasis on their side—NOTHING of inquiry, defining terminlogy, or actually PRAISING ONE ANOTHER FOR THINGS THAT THEY GOT CORRECT)…….and for me, part of me stopped following because some of the arguments on both sides kept getting repetious…..and that there didn’t seem to be honest discussion that leads to wisdom. It often seemed more akin to someone wanting to pick a fight/prove someone wrong and have a battle on who could have the last word…..& I’ve witnessed discussions with folks on different sides of the table but who seemed to go about it better. For more info, consider investigating here:

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceL…re_You_Answer/

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceL…ex/123_Speech/

But hey, what do I know? I wasn’t on the Roster anyway & I’m not part of the family

What follows are some of the responses given to me on the subject:
 ***Actually your way off base dg about our motives or what you may “think” our motives may be. None of us are here to “boast” or to win a argument. It all has to do with truth. And regarding “passer-buyers” there have been plenty who have come to their senses regarding the pitfalls of wof. The ones on ted’s list are the ones that have been on carm for at least six years or so now. We all know the “trends” of this board and who the players are that come and go.***And if you don’t know where you fit in I dare say you are “doubleminded” and that is not a good position to be in as far as I’m concerned. What is being judged here is not the people but the wof teachings and they definitely fall short orthodoxy or “right belief” according to what the Bible says and teaches and not someones interpretation of what is right belief. One quick example would be did Jesus Christ die spiritually? The Bible says no but many wof say yes. See how simple this is double-g.

In God the Son,
james

 wiz, you need to lighten up double-g and quit taking this so seriously. You mean you can’t tell yodas is just playing around? Even vw recognizes this fact. First of all I’m not so great. Secondily, maiestro would tell you he is not a great apologest, trave is not as wise you think, yodas could be more persistent and ted would be the first to tell you he’s not really that magnificent-just ask his wife. Finally, I certaintly don’t need a typical long cut and paste job to teach me about pride. I know it comes before the fall and that’s why I am still standing defending the faith once for all delivered to the saints for the last 45 years of being a christian. (Jude 3). Have a nice evening or day depending on where you live. In God the Son,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-G (G²) View Post
Motives are also shown in Fruit…..and if the motive is soley about truth and NOT HERE TO BOAST, then why is there the need to let everyone know that one side has apparently WON?

G2 really think about this for a moment. How can you know a person’s fruit when you don’t know the person’s heart when something is posted? What was YP’s motive when he posted this, please tell me. There is a history and long time effort of posting by some of these folks, on both sides. It has been said, a least a thousand times, that we all consider one another brothers if we are truly Christ’s. The reason for some of these posts is to get folks to get back to the table and talk about the issues using humor and sarcasm as a method. The fruit is born when folks, like the critics did recently, stand up against their own and defend a wofer as a brother in Christ and point out his good qualities when he could have just as easily been silent. And personally, I like most of the wofer’s here and think if I knew them personally we would have a good friendship that would challenge each other.

Personally, I think you are making yourself into something your not, a teacher of your elders, and you are taking some of these things way to seriously.

BTW, a national ministry doesn’t make any one right or wrong, it means they are popular…, and I would suggest that should in itself raise the red flag and make one more careful about those particular ministries. Even the ones in your own camp. And, as you already know, I don’t find the cut and paste method of teaching particularly useful when I have already read most of these fellows and what they teach long ago. I find that conversation via posting, is the best method of teaching, when it comes from the heart of experience rather than from a heart learning the basics.

Blessings my young friend.

__________________
Chosen in Him,
Tallen
These are my responses to both of them (one of which was given after the man who made the original posting made clear that everything he did was in fun and I apologized for not asking waht his intentions were  first before responding….JUST as I would want others to do for me if I did something and to them it came off the wrong way (Proverbs 18:13-17). ….
Quote:
Originally Posted by james View Post
***Actually your way off base dg about our motives or what you may “think” our motives may be. None of us are here to “boast” or to win a argument. It all has to do with truth. And regarding “passer-buyers” there have been plenty who have come to their senses regarding the pitfalls of wof. The ones on ted’s list are the ones that have been on carm for at least six years or so now. We all know the “trends” of this board and who the players are that come and go.***And if you don’t know where you fit in I dare say you are “doubleminded” and that is not a good position to be in as far as I’m concerned. What is being judged here is not the people but the wof teachings and they definitely fall short orthodoxy or “right belief” according to what the Bible says and teaches and not someones interpretation of what is right belief. One quick example would be did Jesus Christ die spiritually? The Bible says no but many wof say yes. See how simple this is double-g.

In God the Son,
james

Cool…

Quote:
At long last, it has been the Orthodox who had prevailed against both the Heterodox Word Faith types and the Heretical Word Faith types:James the Great
Tallen the Magnificent
Maestroh the Apologist
Travelah the Wise
Yodas_Prodigy the Persistent

And I guess that this is a BASTION of HUMILTY/MEEKNESS……….or that this is in line with the truth of God’s Word on the issue, hmm?

Is bringing attention to one’s victories over another who disagrees or r getting others to pat one on a back for how good they did justified in the Word of GOD?

Quote:
Proverbs 27:2
Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; someone else, and not your own lips.

Sorry, but I don’t see this anywhere justified by the Word, Jesus or the APOSTLES…..and the Scriptures I placed up (not refuted) still stand ( (lest you or others believe you have done a sufficient job of walking in humility or gentleness or consideration—Biblical Wisdom)

Please don’t mistake me, for I am by no means saying that every single instance discussion took place involved a lack of desire for TRUTH. However, Motives are also shown in Fruit…..and if the motive is soley about truth and NOT HERE TO BOAST, then why is there the need to let everyone know that one side has apparently WON? Or being proud about it?, then why is it that the other parts of God’s Word where His truth is apparent are ignored? Call a spade a spade, Brah. This is boastful, and ARROGANT…….& if there’s still to be justification on it, then I don’t know what else to say (except that perhaps there ‘s also deception on the other side of the fence as well—-especially if God Word condemns it & yet we completely ignore it, James 1:22-37)

Passer-Byers are not JUST those including who are in WORD-OF-FAITH and who do not recognize some of the errors in it, but those who already see the errors also and want to see humble dialouge—-or who see that there are things in Word of Faith that are just as

AND NOTE that I specifically said I do not think EVERY TEACHING WITHIN WORD OF FAITH IS CORRECT. The “Jesus died spiritually” is a common one that has been discussed before and I don’t knock that. I specifically said that I’m of the mentalitythat Brother Mike is in, where I do not adhere to Word of Faith but definately have some things I see in it that are indeed Biblical but often get overlooked….and that I’m open to learning from them on some issues.

Regarding the position Brother Mike and I are in, that’s FAR FROM DOUBLE-MINDED. I’ve always made my stance that I am Reformed Charismatic……but that doesn’t mean that there are no nuggets of wisdom that I can learn from in WORD-OF-FAITH (seeing that Word of Faith was a branch off of the Charismatic Movement and there are many things they have that Charismatics have as well, though even Charismatics recognize the distinctions and do not consider themselves the same).

For your consideration, check this out (As it is by one of those within the Reformed Charistimatic movement who feels the same):

http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com…th–prosperity

Also, to show more what I mean:

Quote:
Some Bible students have a hard time resisting the teachings of the Word Faith movement because Word Faith teachers do, indeed, focus on some scriptures which are ignored at times by other Bible teachers.[/SIZE]

  • We are told in the scriptures that, as children of God, we now have direct access to Him, and can “come boldly unto the throne of grace to make our petitions.” Many Christians are indeed timid with their prayers. There is a fine line between boldness and presumption. The Word Faith teachers definitely go over that line into presumption. But understanding that we need to avoid such presumption should not deter us from Godly boldness.
    [/SIZE]
  • ]Many Christians do indeed conduct their lives as if they are utterly convinced that God no longer interacts with His creation. They do not expect any miracles from God, they do not expect Him to guide them personally through the Holy Spirit, and they do not expect Him to intervene in any way with circumstances in the world around them. They view Him as a God who is “afar off,” and although He will one day again send Jesus to the earth, that Jesus is only a figure on a throne in heaven at this point in time. Yet Jesus said, “Lo, I am with you always, even unto the End of the Age.” It is certainly possible to understand that God takes a very intimate interest in our daily lives, and interacts with us, and intervenes actively at times in our circumstances, without insisting that we control Him with our words.
    [/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=2]The scriptures do not promise that every affliction that Christians will endure in this life will be lifted miraculously and instantaneously from them if they can just grasp the proper “keys” to such miracles. However, the Bible most certainly does claim that God can and does intervene miraculously at times to fulfill His own will in the lives of His people. And it thus admonishes us to pray for one another in such circumstances, and directs an individual who is sick to call for the elders of the church to anoint him. It is obvious from the letters of Paul that healing did not happen for everyone all the time. For instance, in one place he notes that he “left Timothy sick at Miletus.” [/SIZE][SIZE=2]And in another place, he suggests to Timothy that he drink a little wine to help his stomach problems. These were both men of great faith, who served God mightily. No doubt such sickness interfered with Timothy’s ability to accomplish as much as he would like in his ministry. Yet neither he nor Paul was evidently able to “claim” a healing for Timothy. At the same time, there is absolutely no indication that either stopped believing that God could and would perform future miracles including healing. Nor should believers of our time doubt this. God does heal, and even if the Word Faith teachers presumptuously insist that we can force Him to do so according to our own will, this does not negate the fact that sometimes it is His will to heal miraculously and instantaneously. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=4]Players[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]The following list contains the names of some of the key Word Faith teachers, past and present, with national ministries……..
[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Charles Capps[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Cho, Paul Yonggi[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Copeland, Kenneth[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Crouch, Paul and Jan[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Duplantis, Jesse[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Hagin, Kenneth
[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Hayes, Norvel[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Hayford, Jack[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Hickey, Marilyn[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Jakes, T.D.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Kenyon, E.W.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Meyer, Joyce[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Murdock, Mike[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Parsley, Rod[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Price, Frederick K.C.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Savelle, Jerry[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] Thompson, Dwight [/SIZE][SIZE=4]
http://www.isitso.org/guide/wordfaith.html[/SIZE]

It simply means that one doesn’t believe that no camp has either 100% truth OR `100% error in it–(no more than my saying kicking Mormons to the curve and claiming they’re wrong for saying that we should love our families or that Jehovaha Witnesses say that prayer is important simply because we have some significant things which we’re in disagreement with such as salvation or “works”)…….& to be explicitly clear, I AM NOT KNOCKING CORRECTING THOSE THINGS IN WORD OF FAITH THAT ARE ERROR.

That’s valid and appreciated. But on this (boasting—“Yeah, LOOK AT US & HOW ON-POINT WE ARE) sorry but this is being unfaithful to the Word of God…..

Quote:
Proverbs 16:5
The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.
Quote:
Proverbs 21:24
The proud and arrogant man-“Mocker” is his name; he behaves with overweening pride.

Take note, Brah, Jesus already dealt with the issue before in very SOBERING WORDS (to where NO ONE COULD BOAST):

Quote:

Luke 18The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Quote:
1 John 2:15-17
Do Not Love the World

15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

__________________
Proverbs 18:15 15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge;
the ears of the wise seek it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy View Post
Hello Double G, this was in fun. And if you noticed, some of the boys posted on here that have been absent for a while. As far as I can tell most of the guys on the list are my Bro’s in Christ, even my friendly adversary VW…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy View Post
Of course, sometimes I have to wonder. But that’s God’s arena, not mine…Oh, and I’m the newby of the five. I’ve only been here 2 years…

Thanks for the clarifications, Brah. In the post I wrote last night but that got deleted, I wrote that I apologized for not asking you first what your intentions were before responding…..just as I would want others to do for me if I did something and to them it came off the wrong way (Proverbs 18:13-17). Again, appreciate it….

In case you were wondering (and this is dealing with some of Brother Tallen’s statements as well, such as “G2 really think about this for a moment. How can you know a person’s fruit when you don’t know the person’s heart when something is posted? What was YP’s motive when he posted this, please tell me”), what I was going off of is what the word says here:

Quote:
Matthew 12:33-37

33″Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Quote:
Luke 6:43-46 A Tree and Its Fruit

43″No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

The Wise and Foolish Builders

46″Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

As you know, Brah, Jesus reminds us that our speech and actions reveal our true underlying beliefs, attitudes, and motivations……and what is in our heart will come out in our speech and behavior. And this is not a concept foreign to the Bible (Titus 1:15-16, Acts 26:20, Acts 8:9-25, Luke 9:46-48, Proverbs 12:23, Proverbs 15:2, etc).

If I was constantly using dirty language or foolish talk/putting down others, naturally I’d be suspect to perhaps not walking in line with the Spirit of God since having a true love for others/being considerate is one of the fruits of those who are elect (Romans 12:9-21, Galatians 5:13-26, Colossians 3:12-14, I Peter 3:8-12, I Peter 4:7-11, James 3:13-18)…..

or that if it appears that I’m acting prideful/mocking others and claiming it’s done for the truth & yet I’m blatantly ignoring/going against that which God gave as a standard for how I should operate, then perhaps not every motive of my heart is truth & there is pride in my heart since there’s fruit (evidence) of that which God said I would recognize as a Characteristic (Proverbs 21:24). You see the same thing happening when people claim that they’re acting like Paul whenever they use sharp sarcasm/rebuke on others and yet they often neglect to do the other things Paul did as well……such as forming a solid elationship/working hard at first encouraging others (as he did with most of the churches he worked with) as part of his basis for ministry or thanking the Lord for them/letting them know how much they were appreciated… (I Corinthians 4:14-16, I Corinthians 1:4-6, Proverbs 27:6 )

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1352

.

Quote:
Ephesians 4:29-3029Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Again, that’s all I was coming from…….that if our actions are not in line with what the Word of God says how we should interact with one another—and the reason given are “Well, we all understand one another still and that’s just how it is”, then that’s an issue…….if we all claim to consider each other Brethren & yet the standards that GOD GAVE FOR HOW BRETHREN ARE TO TREAT ONE ANOTHER are not followed/reflected in our interactions, can’t help but be confused (and in following many of the dialouges, I’ve seen many examples of this…..& testimonies from many on the WORD OF FAITH SIDE that have said that they were greatly offended/troubled at how things went down and yet things went on as if it was of no consequence—including Victory Word. That I do not think should be ignored ).

If anyone would like me to go back and show the posts word-for-word, I’d be more than happy…….& it may ease my mind a bit more if there was overwhelming testimony on the Word of Faith side that they consistently appreciate how things have gone down.

__________________
To Tallen:

Quote:
The reason for some of these posts is to get folks to get back to the table and talk about the issues using humor and sarcasm as a method. The fruit is born when folks, like the critics did recently, stand up against their own and defend a wofer as a brother in Christ and point out his good qualities when he could have just as easily been silent. And personally, I like most of the wofer’s here and think if I knew them personally we would have a good friendship that would challenge each other

And I don’t knock this…nor do I deny that there have been times when dialouge began in sarcasm and good discussion came about from it. Trust me, I’m not against sarcasm. I do so a bit myself……and for some people, that style of humor is how they relate best.

However, I’ve also seen it where things get out of hand & folks ONLY do that all the time & there’s rarely any demonstration of patience/kindness or meekness…….or where they’ve become recklessly sarcastic—not giving thought to how their words will come off to all and people get damaged as a result (i.e. constantly being sharp or silly—–which can get old afterawhile if there’s never anything of encouragement taking place where grace is imparted to one’s hearers, Ephesians 4:29-30 ). This is something that used to get friends of mine in trouble all of the time in dialouging.

….& that’s all that I’m from. Teasing can get overboard at times and give wrong impressions……& since folks are watching, we need to be careful to do what’s right in the eyes of everyone (Romans 12:17-18). Based on the overwhelming testimonies of those who’ve passed by—-(and these not necessarily from those within WORD OF FAITH)—what’s our testimony before others like?

Quote:
Proverbs 11:12
A man who lacks judgment
derideshisneighbor, but a man of understanding holds his tongue

Quote:
Proverbs 12:18
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing

Quote:
Proverbs 16:21
The wise in heart are called discerning, and pleasant words promote instruction.

Gotta have that wisdom that comes from humility (James 3:13-18)http://bibletools.org//index.cfm/fus…57/Sarcasm.htm

Of course, perception is an issue as well. (as was the case for my takning Brother Yodas Prodigy the wrong way and not asking first). As my friend KKL4EVER once said on the subject,

Quote:
Perception is reality. The approach as I see other’s comments is they express themselves not only from their thoughts, but also from their passions. There are cases where I thought the comments (not mine necessarily), were really gentle, but the reply was that the gentle person was being manipulative or playing mind games. I really thought this would really isolated, but it appears in today’s discussion environment, many are very sensitive to whether someone is trying to perform therapy on them over the discussion board.What I have found is that if the dialog continues with considerations that others will have their passions bleed over into their words more than what the recipient is accustom to, then understanding is often acheived. those who are constantly sarastic may do so with a love for the art

When he said that, that really struck me (especially if sarasm/humor is how they best RECIEVE/LEARN information)…4 I have seen this first hand in many of the debates I’ve been involved in elsewhere.……..and some sarcastic folks may honestly do so with the best of intentions at heart/DESIRING to help another, but may be percieved wrongly as having dark intentions/being attacking on another because of how another use the technique wrongly, consequently resulting in a aversion to anything similar of it and no room for objectivity/consideration on the issue…………

And on the flip side, the same effect can happen for those who are gentle/sincerly seeking to bless others but may be unfairly suspected of manipulating/deception because of how someone employed the technique negatively.

It’s just like money. If one recieved counterfit dollar bills by another and that person suffered as a result (such as trying to turn the money into the bank and then finding out they were fooled wrongly), or saw someone use money in an evil way (such as using it to possibly buy drugs/sell them to children or for purposes of embezzlment, etc), it would be illogical for them to claim “MONEY IS EVIL” or to say that ALL $$$ is fake and, therefore, no longer worth using.The counterfit bills OR ABUSES of cash didn’t represent money’s purpose/usefulnes

AS A WHOLE…..and likewise, the wrong usage of language (sarcasm) doesn’t represent the ENTIRTEY of sarcasm, as in it’s usefulness and other things. It’s a simple matter of not condeming the style of expression because of CERTAIN uses of it.

Note:

Quote:
Personally, I think you are making yourself into something your not, a teacher of your elders, and you are taking some of these things way to seriously.

And of course, you’re welcome to feel that way. However, allow me to share my two cents. Perhaps I’m taking you the wrong way, but let’s be clear on some things Brah.
[SIZE=5]

Quote:
[/SIZE]

Quote:
[SIZE=5]1 Peter 5[/SIZE]To Elders and Young Men

1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
[SIZE=5]

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Elders are church officers who provide supervision, protection, discipline, instruction,and direction for other believers. They cared for God’s flock, led by EXAMPLE, and had a heart to serve above all else as the Lord did—with authority being based on humble service and not mere knowledge (Mark 10:42-45, John 21:15-17). Though elder simply meant older, it was not something SOLEY akin to PHYSICAL AGE….but of maturity in the Spirit as well.

That said, I already have people like this in my life (both online and elsewhere….go here, for example: http://mymiscellanies.blogspot.com/2…tism-with.html) who have greatly impacted me & who demonstrate their wisdom in deeds done in HUMILITY (James 3:12-18) & who demonstrate the characteristics called of those who are in leadership in the church that I’ve been seeking to address (i.e. I Timothy 3:1-10, Titus 1:6-9). IMHO, None of you here fit the bill since there has yet to be a mass demonstration of things such as HUMILITY, not over-bearing, HOSPITABLE, temperate, not quarrelsome, KIND, COURTEOUS, giving preference to others/honoring others ABOVE yourselves, etc) or ever seems to deal with the Scriptures that I posted up and act as if they’re not there (II Timothy 2:23-27)—AS BIBLICAL ELDERS SHOULD DO.

By no means am I saying that there have never been anytimes when people on this forum have helped me out. That is appreciated, but Again, Unless someone here is willing to take the stance that they’ve taken the time to do these things consistently and that they’ve poured into my life immensely/served greatly (both in actually listening and affirming when it comes to someone saying “I think you’re in error here since God’s word says this…”), then don’t claim the title as if you’re qualified for it.

Moreover, as the Word of God says, all believers should strive to follow these guidelines because it is consistent with what God says is true and right. I’m a youth deacon/intern at my church..have had PLENTY OF EXPERIENCE in ministry practically as well as learning from those who’ve been in it longer than many here…but even I realize that Just because some may never teach/lead formally does not imply that they are not effectively able to teach. Paul described this kind of intimate teaching in II Timothy 2:2:

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II Timothy 2:2

2And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

Moreover, IF YOU’re thinking youth is an issue, deal with I Timothy 4:11-16. He was a young pastor, but age wasn’t an issue with God. He set an example in his speech, life, and love faith and purity……(I Timothy 4). That has been my goal from the get-go……for regardless of age, GOD’S WORD IS THE FINAL STANDARD….AND if we’re doing something the Bible says we’re not to do, I think my bible overrides others. Doesn’t matter how long one has been doing something either, for length of time doesn’t mean you’ve been doing it RIGHT.

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Ecclesiastes 4:13
[ Advancement Is Meaningless ] Better a poor but wise youth than an old but foolish king who no longer knows how to take warning

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BTW, a national ministry doesn’t make any one right or wrong, it means they are popular…, and I would suggest that should in itself raise the red flag and make one more careful about those particular ministries. Even the ones in your own camp. And, as you already know, I don’t find the cut and paste method of teaching particularly useful when I have already read most of these fellows and what they teach long ago. I find that conversation via posting, is the best method of teaching, when it comes from the heart of experience rather than from a heart learning the basics. I find that conversation via posting, is the best method of teaching, when it comes from the heart of experience rather than from a heart learning the basics.

Don’t know where you got the impression that I believe someone in national ministry’s necessarily right or wrong…..but of course, all depends on why the popluarity is there to begin with. I don’t knock John Piper or John Macarther—both of whom have done an EXCELLENT job representing the faith—simply because they’re popluar. I examine the reasons why. Same things with the guys I cited, who are down with them. They’re men of truth and both are seeking to build up the saints…and there is a GREAT NEED FOR THAT, hence why they’re popular with many. No need for RED FLAGS, (though of course, I’m careful as I don’t agree with everything they do 100% either—even within my camp, such as Sam Storms being cool with Jack Deere, even though both are friends and Jack Deere is with many of the leaders in the Prophetic/Apostolic movement—which I have serious issue with)

No one’s learning the basis, Brah. It’s all from experience (both in what I’ve learned over the years and what I’ve witnessed from those older than me in the faith & who encouraged me in the Lord) and I’ll share if interested. Moreover, if it’s basic and one already knows it, then it should be placed into practice. When that isn’t demonstrated, obviously it hasn’t been perfected downpack.

If we’re not continuing in what the Word of God says and others cannot see that, that’s a problem:

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2 Timothy 3:14-20 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

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<H3>James 1:22-26

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22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.
26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

</H3></H3> Nothing wrong with reminding, anyhow:

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1 Corinthians 4:171 Corinthians 15:1

]Philippians 3:1

2 Timothy 2:11-15

11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself. A Workman Approved by God

14Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

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2 Peter 1:11-13

The list goes on…….but simply being familar with something and it not being obvious that one’s practicing it is always an issue.

Quote:
Proverbs 16:13
Kings take pleasure in honest lips; they value a man who speaks the truth.

Pray you can see where I’m coming from. Much love, Brah….

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Originally Posted by Tallen View Post
I see where you are coming from just not sure you do, as james pointed out a few times.Never the less, blessings.

And has been pointed out to both James/You a few times (not only by myself, but MANY others—folks like Osita, Sos22, and even many on the list from time to time), the behavior when compared with scriptural madates for how we treat brethren doesn’t line up consistently and it may be an issue to deal with if God places so much emphasis on it (Proverbs 28:9) and the texts have yet to be dealt with appropiately ( (Romans 12:9-21, Galatians 5:13-26, Colossians 3:12-14, II Timothy 2:23-27, I Peter 3:8-12, I Peter 4:7-11, James 3:13-18)…….and no, still don’t think U see where I’m coming from or else there would be a dealing with the Word/adjustment accordingly. (or at least examples given of where folks consider themselves to have remainded FAITHFUL to them in detail rather than what often seems to be a going around of things—i.e. “We’ve been couteous, and meek in this”…..or “we gave preference toward others in doing this”……or We’ve been faithful to James 3:13-18 definiton of wisdom because of this…..and this is where we were impartial/peaceable….”You can’t call this a quarrel because……”). Nevertheless, blessings still to you as well. Don’t wish to quarrel about it since I don’t believe there’ll ever be 100% aggrement/minds are made up.

Proverbs 20:3
Proverbs 17:14
Proverbs 17:27
Proverbs 17:28

In any case, as long as this is the standard:

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1 Peter 5To Elders and Young Men

1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

5Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,
“God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble.”[

Both young & old can benefit from Peter’s instructions. Pride often keeps older people from trying to understand young people and keeps older young people from listening to those who are older. Peter told both young and old to be HUMBLE and to serve one another in love. Young men men should follow the leadership of older men, who should lead by EXAMPLE/remaining true to the Word–and only as far as they remain obediant to the examples of the Word. Respect those who are older than you, listen to those younger than you….and be humble enough to admit you can learn from each other…..for GOD’s watching.

Apart from that, it’s all good. Blessings, Brah

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Proverbs 18:15

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Originally Posted by Tallen View Post
And you can only come to these conclusion when you assume to know my motive and heart toward such things. BTW, your use of scripture shows that exactly as you lump folks into the problems associated with what the Apostles were addressing. When you claim that you are using scripture for your point, the point is often misplaced because you have started based upon fallacy, the wrong assumption. I see that as associated with your youth and desire to please the Lord, but often misplaced when directed at the elders of the faith and those that are giving reasonable and tempered responses to error.Have the last word G2, I appreciate you and love you despite any differences we may have and enough has been said already.

Sigh (shrugged shoulders)….

Cool, Brah (though Contrary to your statement, You can come to that conclusion based upon what Jesus said POINT-BLANK (out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks)….And likewise, despite numerous testimonies, you assume you don’t qualify for the problems the Apostles were adressing….yet the very actions they described (as well as their context) you and many others have often DONE……& it would’ve been appreciated if you deal with the Scriptures I studied…….the same as it has been when you’ve had an issue with someone in Word of Faith and it seems as if they’ve done something one way and you’re asking for clarification based upon Scripture….or you assumed what the motives of their heart were when they didn’t answer you or said something-). If the response was reasonable/tempered, then where was the dealing in the text? That’s part of the reasonable service called of in the Lord’s Servant (II Timothy 2:23-27), who is “able to teach” and break things down…..(moreover, seeing you claim to be my elders, that should be a DEFINING characteristic, I Timothy 3:2…..and moreover seeing that it’s a HIGH task, James 3:1) . If you were in line with the Scripture, it would be appreciated if you or someone could indicate/show where point for point. Apart from that, all we have is opinion without any examination of the texts…..

If you don’t wish to, cool……not going trip. As I said before,

Proverbs 20:3
Proverbs 17:14
Proverbs 17:27
Proverbs 17:28

And again…….this has nothing to do with youth. It’s about consistency/accuracy with the Word. as I said clear, never said I OR ANYONE CAN EVER know all the motives of someone’s heart by their outward actions 100%. Only God has that ability…..

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<H3>1 Samuel 16:6-8

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6 When they arrived, Samuel saw Eliab and thought, “Surely the LORD’s anointed stands here before the LORD.”
7 But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.

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Proverbs 21:2
All a man’s ways seem right to him, but the LORD weighs the heart.

Proverbs 17:3

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Jeremiah 17:1010 “I the LORD search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve.”

. Nonetheless, Jesus’s words stand clear: Actions often reveal a good deal of what’s inside….& it’s something we also have to go by (Luke 6:43-46 , (unless of course Jesus was MINCING words in saying “out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks” & was not meaning that actions/fruit is indicative of something…… ). Brother Yodas clarified what his intentions were, and hea and I are on the same page now. Didn’t say I knew that his heart was boasting ALL THE TIME, nor did I ever assume that I know what his motive was in every situation like this (i.e. fun).But doesn’t change the fact that the outward appearances were something one can sometimes go by …….& Saying “you don’t know the motives of my heart” goes NOWHERE when the actions are nonetheless contrary to Scripture.

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Have the last word G2, I appreciate you and love you despite any differences we may have and enough has been said already.

Likewise, Brah…..but cool (and keep your word. You say you wish for me to have the last word, don’t bounce back in reply. )

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