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THUS SAYETH THE LORD ( I think….): A study on NT PROPHETS, the Prophetic, and whether or not they make MISTAKES

Posted by Gabriel (G²) on February 13, 2008

“THUS  SAYETH THE LORD!!”…….and it doesn’t come to pass,
Or how about a prophet saying something that goes against what God wanted. Or someone claims that someone in the Name of the Lord told them to do something that seemed a bit crazy but since it was by someone claiming the name of a “prophet”, then it was of God. These are all things which often get brought up when it comes to the discussion of prophets being available for today. Growing up in the Charismatic Movement (as well as being exposed to the Apostolic/Prophetic Movement and many things within such as the Elijah List or the Call) and being Charismatic myself, I’ve seen my fair share of things………..& when it comes to this paticular issue, one of the things that has always been a must for me is the need for discernment when it comes to whether or not one wonders whether they heard from GOD…..or what the Bible says about PROPHETS…and anything in the name of the Lord.
That said, I was wondering if perhaps we could move the dialouge to bit of a different areana. Specifically, regarding the areana of the prophetic and prophets, does anyone have any thoughts on the “IHOP” movement? Or the Apostolic/Prophetic movement?For info, go here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna…ouse_of_Prayer

http://www.ihop.org/Group/Group.aspx?id=14025

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic-Prophetic_MovementNow, to anyone wondering, I am asking this because if it hasn’t been made obvious, I’m very much for the prophetic. Experienced it too many times in WAY TOO MANY CRRAZY WAYS to deny it at this point…..and I make no apologies. I’ve studied the Word on the issue, and I’m in full support of it today.

However, due to what the Word of God says on the subject of false teachings/movements and how we should not only be wary of those promoting such things, as well as discerning/realizing how the level of deception will increase in the last days (Romans 16, Jude 1), I’m also very hesitant. There are many individuals who’ve been affiliated with the leaders within this movement who’ve done many things the Word is against (i.e. Mike Bickle associating with Bob Jones and Paul Cain, Rick Joyner, etc, promoting men who have had GRAVE Moral failings, promoting new doctrines/teachings that are not of God l) …..

Moreover, I’m well aware that there are MANY things that have happened within the movement that have deeply BOTHERED me (laughing, barking, vomiting things, etc)…
Apart from that (minus falling in the spirit/laughing, for differing reasons……..and done reasonably as opposed to out of order, as I’ve witnessed both of them when done completely in CHAOS with EVERYBODY FALLING DOW or BEING PUSHED DOWN constantly or others barking like dogs/howling). I’ve heard about the vomiting gig before and HIGHLY DENOUNCE IT……though I only thought it happened within many “deliverance ministries” when people were apparently trying to cast out a demon. Never made any sense to me……
 meant to add in a previous post that I’ve studied up on Mr.Bickle. For reference:http://www.safeguardyoursoul.com/htm…er_wagner.html
http://www.safeguardyoursoul.com/html/mike_bickle.html
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c06.html

Of course, there are more resources I’ve utilized besides this (and by no means do I endorse or support EVERY CLAIM made by them, as on some things I think more study/research is necessary and other things were not as clear/balanced), but they all have MANY VALID POINTS……..& honestly, it’s very frustrating seeing how much deception has entered into different parts of the body of CHrist. And more frustrating seeing how whenever one tries to deal with it biblically, one’s labeled as going against the program. My mentality has always been to take ANY TEACHING–GOOD OR BAD, regardless of who the man is–see if it lines up with the Word before being accepted……& that some things are not a simple “BLACK & WHITE MATTER” (Acts 17).

Thing is this is the last days……and no one’s above being decieved. There were many things Jack Deere has said in books that I studied for myself/practiced and I appreciated him for that.

However, some of the associations he has made and other things he— done due to how some in the Prophetic/Apostolic movement believe the same & therefore get a “free pass” on EVERYTHING—is a big issue. It’d be like me saying “Creflo Dollar believes that Christians are to believe in the Lord and know that they can expect that the Lord hears them since He encouraged “persistent prayer”….and then extending that to accept EVERY ONE OF THE TEACHINGS HE PROMOTES, even those which are detrimental….simply because he got some things correct. That I’ve called out…..& have gotten on folks nerve before for it.

Wrote an entire thread on the issue if you’re interested in investigating it sometime:

( #86, #92, #93, #94, #95, #96, #100, #105, #106, #107, #108, #109, #110, #112, #115, #121, #128,
#129, #130)

http://www.christiandiscussionforums…48#post1709748
http://www.christiandiscussionforums…ad.php?t=63738
http://www.christiandiscussionforums…t=63738&page=2
http://www.christiandiscussionforums…ad.php?t=62877

No wonder discernment’s needed on all fronts….and that people be willing to wisely wage war in the camp—as opposed to having an abandon ship mentality—-so that everyone is sound on ALL Points…

That, or simply deciding to go ahead/begin another movement & do something compltetly different…

Quote:
<H4>1 Timothy 1

Quote:
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
2To Timothy my true son in the faith:
Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. Warning Against False Teachers of the Law

3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

Warning Against False Teachers of the Law

3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

8We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that law[a] is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. The Lord’s Grace to Paul

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
18Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

</H4>

Quote:
2 Timothy 21You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others. 3Endure hardship with us like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs—he wants to please his commanding officer. 5Similarly, if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not receive the victor’s crown unless he competes according to the rules. 6The hardworking farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crops. 7Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this.

8Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, 9for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God’s word is not chained. 10Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory. 11Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;

12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.

If we disown him,
he will also disown us;

13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
A Workman Approved by God

14Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,”[a] and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

20In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
22Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

f

Quote:
Quote:
fJude 1:17-27

<H5>g

A call to persevere

17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. Doxology

24To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
</H5>

 
However, despite the false teachings/errors I believe are in the movement, I do not believe that is representive of everyone within the movement anymore than Creflo Dollar represents everyone who is involved in a Word of Faith camp since there’s never a one-side fits all….and many people believeing the same things as he has have called him out on it (i.e. Jesus was the first born-again man, etc). Due to the abuses and there’s so much mixture as seems to be happening in EVERY denomination nowadays, things are more sticker than before to label.This is a sensitive subject for me, by the way. Like me, there are many within the movement who are trying to call the errors of the movement out….who understand the issue of false teaching/doctrine and practice (I Timothy 1:3-7, II Timothy 2, Titus 1-3, II Peter, I John 4)…and who are trying to reconstruct things from the inside out without throwing away everything so that we have BALANCE in the Body of Christ.

An example (though it regards Word of Faith)
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.c…struction.html

There are many within the movement who are trying to discover/proclaim those things which are Biblical (i.e. humble orthodoxy, passionate prayer/praise, prophectic giftings, etc) and help maintain that while purging it of anything else that goes against the Lord (i.e. false prophets/apostles, lack of sound theology & more of a love for EXPERIENCE than that of TRUTH)

I have many friends within this movement who’ve grown up with me….and many of them bear MUCH GOOD FRUIT in their lives. The same goes for many of the things I’ve experienced within the movement or growing up Charismatic…and I’ve seen many people within the movement who’ve truly inspired me to go more after the Lord (i.e. Misty Edwards, Jason Upton, Rick Pino, etc).

Many of the Reformed Charismatics who’ve done such a COMMENDABLE job trying to bring things within the Charismatic/Pentacostal movement in decency/order (i.e. John Piper, Joshua Harris, Sam Storms, Wayne Grudem, etc) have actually been in support of many aspects of the movement since there are many things similar to it within Charismatic camps/the things they do (ex. Joshua Harris’s “New ATTITUDE” conference and “Humble Orthodoxy”…as well as “PASSION CONFERENCES” done by Louie Giglio and which folks such as John Piper speak at regularly)…..and all of them are very respected in the faith, even among those who are not Charismatic since their main goal is to keep the MAIN THING THE MAIN THING: THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST/HIM CRUCIFIED

For example,

http://www.t4g.org/speakers.html

And personally, I believe that no camp has it 100% correct, whether in the Charismatic Camp, Baptist Camp, Reformed Camp….and even the Apostolic/Prophetic camp. I’ve been in all of them, and I have seen sincere/real believers in CHrist and Warriors for the Gospel in them…..which again, is why I’m hesistant to have an “ABANDON SHIP” mentality when it comes to adressing with the errors attached t o a good thing. To me, it’s ILLOGICAL CLAIMING ONE CANNOT LEARN FROM OR ASSOCIATE with Believers holding DIFFERING interpretations ——For what’s ESSENTIAL is THE CENTRALITY OF THE
GOSPEL OF CHRIST….

Moreover, IMO, SOMETHING’S HIGHLY OFF when we’re willing to DIVIDE OVER NON-ESSENTIAL
issues rather than UNITING FOR THE SAKE OF SPREADING THE GOSPEL…..for not all
Followers will resemble each other or belong to the SAME GROUPS. People who are on Jesus’ side have the SAME GOAL of BUILDING UP THE KINGDOM of GOD, & THEY
SHOULD NOT LET THEIR DIFFERENCES INTERFERE WITH THIS GOAL ( I Corinthians 12,
Ephesians 4:1-16).

If someone shares common faith in Christ, THEY SHOULD be
COOPERATED WITH, as the Word says (Mark 9:38-41)……but for those in the IHOP/APOSTOLIC CAMP, it’s necessary that MUCH DISCERNMENT TAKE PLACE……..Hence, back to my original issue. Is anyone here up for the task of taking the time to identify that which is BIBLICAL and UNBIBLICAL within the IHOP movement and the Apostolic/Prophetic movement? Is everything invalid?

Again, if anyone has any thoughts, I’d greatly appreciate it……

IMHO, I have seen much fruit/good things come out of these things……….and I have friends who are involved and who are sincerly seeking to glorfify the Lord. Nonetheless, I’m also very cautious since there have been many abuses and things coming out of the movement that I think are an issue (i.e. false prophesies, strange doctrines not in the Word, etc)……though this by no means indicates that EVERYTHING WITHIN THE MOVEMENT IS INVALID…and I’m not willing to throw out the Baby with the BathWater…
Moreover, this by no means indicates that everyone’s in the same camp:
or those who’ve grown up within the Charismatic Movement (or other branches of it, especially the Prophetic/Apostolic movement…like I have), what I’ve seen in the same thing that happens with language. What one word meant back in the day comes to mean something completely different for a new generation or depending on the context (i.e. saying ” that’s wicked!!!” as something to express coolness as opposed to always taking it as something to be reviled as the word used to be taken when it was done so back in the day often)….and regarding the words “prophet”, there were many people who’d use the term to simply express that someone had a very strong prophetic gifting…..and many understand the issues with other being a false prophet who speak NEW DOCTRINES and TEACHINGS NOT IN LINE WITH SCRIPTURE….As my friend Holly (who does much research on the issue) has said on the subject,

Quote:
I want to be clear that the apostolic-prophetic movement is a huge, worldwide movement made up of many different people and strands of thought. I don’t believe that all Christians who are part of this movement are equally in error.

I define the apostolic-prophetic movement as a charismatic Christian movement that is seeking to restore apostles and prophets in the church. Historically, Protestant Christians have believed that apostles and prophets who give new doctrinal revelation have ceased and that the Bible is our sole source of doctrine.

While the apostolic-prophetic movement is seeking to restore apostles and prophets to the church, not all people in this movement view modern “apostles” and “prophets” in the same way. Many believe that “apostles” are simply gifted, visionary leaders who have a strong, evangelistic calling to a specific geographical region or people group (like church planters) and that “prophets” simply have the New Testament gift of prophecy

terms can create confusion when not clarified)…… A lot of confusion arises when it comes to issues of prophets and prophecy because many people don’t make a distinction between the office of prophet and the New Testament gift of prophecy. Some people claim that the Bible makes no such distinction. Yet, when we examine Scripture, this distinction emerges.

When it comes to Old Testament prophets — like Isaiah, Jeremiah and Elijah — we see that they had great authority to speak God’s exact, infallible words. To disobey them was to disobey God. For example, Old Testament prophets gave new teachings and moral commands that were authoritatively binding on all God’s people.

Many of their prophecies were recorded in Scripture and, as such, are still binding on Christians today. They also gave commands to kings that, if disobeyed, brought disastrous judgments on nations. They were sought for divine guidance.

In contrast, Christians with the New Testament gift of prophecy are never seen giving prophecies that are authoritatively binding on all Christians. They never give new commands or doctrines that become Scripture. Far from this, their prophecies must be tested by Scripture. They don’t have the absolute, divine authority we see attached to the office of prophet. In fact, their prophecies can be questioned, challenged and, when false, rejected by other believers.

Also, notably, nowhere in the New Testament do we see a prophet being sought out for guidance. That’s because, in the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit came upon only specially chosen people. But, after Christ’s resurrection, the Holy Spirit now dwells within every believer — making the mediation of a special prophet unnecessary. The New Testament gift of prophecy doesn’t function to mediate or legislate, but to strengthen, comfort and encourage believers and to expose the sinful hearts of unbelievers so they will be convicted and receive salvation. 1 Corinthians 14:3, 14:24-25

The difference between the office of prophet and the gift of prophecy also becomes apparent when we look at the tests for each. Those with the office of prophet must never give a failed prophecy. If they do, they are false prophets.

Those with the New Testament gift of prophecy, however, may make mistakes. This seems evident from 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22, which teaches a church to test all prophetic words — holding onto the good ones and throwing out the bad ones. Note: This passage doesn’t say to throw out the Christian who gives a false prophecy (like the Old Testament says to kill a false prophet). It says to throw out the bad prophecy. The reason for this difference is simple: someone with the gift of prophecy doesn’t have great authority like someone who fills the office of prophet. This person isn’t claiming to be speaking God’s infallible words (or else his or her words would be equal to Scripture). Since the authority isn’t as great, the consequences of such mistakes aren’t as grave.

Theologian Wayne Grudem defines the gift of prophecy as: “speaking merely human words to report something God brings to mind.” Since these prophecies are filtered through human words and human interpretation, they are subject to error. This is a much-diminished role from those who fill the office of prophet and speak God’s very words. The gift of prophecy, however, is still a valuable gift that we should desire, according to Paul. 1 Corinthians 14:1

Yet, Shultz (and many other leaders in the apostolic-prophetic movement) teach that the movement’s “prophets” have the office of prophet, the same as Elijah or Jeremiah. They claim that nations must obey their prophecies or face judgment. They claim they can give new doctrinal revelation and that all Christians must submit to them. These teachings can be found throughout their teachings and books. (See, for example, Bill Hamon’s book Apostles, Prophets and the Coming Moves of God.)

Even though they claim all this for themselves, ironically — when it comes to the guidelines for testing those who hold this office — they turn around and claim those tests don’t apply to them. For instance, they claim that it’s OK if they get prophecies wrong — even though Deuteronomy 18:20-22 says they are false prophets and should be put to death. This is inconsistent. Shultz and his “prophets” can’t have it both ways. They can’t have the authority of the office without accepting the responsibility of the office.

I can’t address all the issues in depth here, as I would like to. These are complex issues, and we Christians need to think carefully about them. The apostle Paul warns us not to be “unaware” when it comes to spiritual gifts like prophecy because, if we are, then we can be misled into idolatry. 1 Corinthians 12:1-2 He also tells us to have maturity when thinking about these issues. 1 Corinthians 14:20 The nature of these gifts is supernatural and, because of that, they need to be practiced with much wisdom and discernment.

Yet, unfortunately many Christians haven’t thought carefully about these issues. And some leaders in the apostolic-prophetic movement are taking advantage of their lack of knowledge. I am afraid the result is that many Christians are being led into unbiblical teachings that, at the least, will stunt their walks with the Lord. At the worst, they might even be opening themselves up to demonic teachings and oppression — something I plan to discuss in future posts.

http://spiritoferror.wordpress.com/c…y/elijah-list/

     Quick NOTE: For anyone wondering what the Word of God says on the issue of the VOICE OF GOD & hearing Him, I’d encourage you to go visit/listen to these in-depth sermons on the issue (from my home church). Of course, go back and study the Word of God yourself (as there were many things he has taught that I’m still not 100% in agreement with as I read the Word and that I’m still uncertain of )………but please know that the majority of the series composes much of my mentality on the issue and was a great help when I was struggling on the issue. Very practical/informative and in-depth…..as well as balanced. These are what you should look for:
 Voice of God How to hear
Mar 2004 Pastor John Fichtner  
  Can I be 100% Sure or Certain that I have heard the Voice of God before a word is fulfilled? sermon handout   Mar 2004  
  Understanding Spirit, Soul and Body sermon handout   Mar 2004  
  When I seek the Lord with all of my heart and I MISS it: is the Lord pleased or displeased and will I be rewarded or punished? sermon handout   Apr 2004  
  Is “Hearing the Voice of God” the SAME THING as “Finding the Will of God”? sermon handout   Apr 2004  
  How does “Wisdom” connect to hearing the Voice of God? sermon handout   May 2004  
  May 2004  
  May 2004  
  A study of the book of Acts on the gift of Prophecy sermon handout   Jun 2004  
  A Bible study of the origins of the School of Prophetic ministry sermon handout   Jun 2004  
  How the “Priesthood of Believers” has removed most of the Right to Rebuke from Prophets and Individuals sermon handout   Jul 2004  
  Dreams – Pt. 1 sermon handout   Jul 2004  
  Dreams – Pt. 2 sermon handout   Jul 2004  
  Conclusion sermon handout  
Moreover, on the issue of Prophets, I’d like to pose the question here of whether or not anyone believes that prophets can make mistakes?
Recently, I was involved in a discussion on the issue over at someone’s site and it was very interesting to say the least. Though me and a couple of the individuals who disagreed with me conversed, I was asked to give a defense to my stance that I believe prophets are available for today and that there are differing categories of prophets. 
If anyone would like to see the thread/discussion I made on the issue, one can go here to CARM to see what I mean in full detail (though it’ll require you registering in order to participate/add comments……but it’s all free and all you really need is a CODENAME to identify yourself)
Also, for more specific info, go here:
 97 .
90
#70f
  #114
   #106
  #127
  #145
    Again, I did alot of study/prayer on the issue….& whereas previoously I would’ve said that prophets always had to hit the mark, I never realize how I often didn’t study the Word on the issue and those passages which I did study I did so to the EXCLUSION of others that seemed contradictory…
           To share some personal testimony, Personally I’ve experienced “prophetic words” since I was young (all of the were “DEAD-ON” and have occured in my life in such detail that I cannot explain it away…especially when mature/sincer brothers and sisters in the Lord spoke into areas of my life that no—AND I MEAN NO ONE–knew about except the Lord and I).Regarding the issue of prophecy, I think that it’ll be necessary for one to clear up what the Biblical definition for prophet/prophecy is before procedding. Otherwise, the water’s will get muddied up….

To note, I also think that it’s dangerous when one approaches a biblical subject without involving the needs for CATEGORIES. For example, when discussing the issue of prophets, are we talking about NT Prophets or OT Prophets? This is key because in my study of the subject it is apparent that the standards radically differed at many points……and it would be error to take an OT Standard and use that as the rule when not looking in light of what the standard was in the NT (and for a good example, Agabus the Prophet in the Book of Acts would be a good place to start since he is one of the prime examples of what a NT prophet looks, which his prophecies were NOT BINDING/AUTHORATIVE as was the case with OT PROPHETS). And for good articles on the subject, go here:

http://mymiscellanies.blogspot.com/2006/10/gospel-driven-prophecy-understanding.html

http://heatlight.wordpress.com/2007/07/24/earnestly-desire-spiritual-gifts-the-gift-of-prophecy-is-todays-church/

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robin.brace/prophets.htm

Prophecy and the Contemporary Pastor – Wayne Grudem (http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/MediaPlayer/2062/Audio/

Prophecy and the Contemporary Pastor – Wayne Grudem

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/MediaPlayer/2062/Audio/

Prophecy Today

These are all, IMHO, SOLID RESOURCES to study on the subject

Also, consider these two as well (though one of them has the argument of 100% accuracey that I do not fully agree with and other information that in my opinion seems to be incomplete/needing further development, but many other valid points regarding what a NT prophet looks like in comparision to OT):

http://cicministry.org/radio_series.php?series=apostles

http://cicministry.org/radio_series.php?series=apostles (for Radio Commentary on the Subject)

http://www.cicministry.org/commentary/issue67b.htm (on the Pitfalls of False Prophets)

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue95b.htm

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue95.htm (On the issue of understanding what Prophecy is/was in both the NT & OT)

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue94.htm (On the issue of JUDGING/DISCERNING)

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue74b.htm (On the issue of BIBLICAL AUTHORITY & whether it comes from Men claiming to speak in the name of God or from how God has defined His NAME/CHARACTER in HIS WORD)

And finally, http://www.cicministry.org/commentary/issue4.htm (On the issue of what essentially is an issue of PROPHETS for PROFITS$$$$, which is where I’d class many of those on TV nowadays, INCLUDING BENNY HINN & various others…….and moreover, what to make of instances where, despite false prophecies made by many within/outside of WOF, there have indeed been many VALID/TRUE prophecies that haves happened)

Again, these are all solid resources IMHO that have helped me greatly in regards to much of the foolishness you see on TV nowadays. Moreover, seeing that I grew up in the WOF movement, saw it from the inside out, and along with others have been seeking to renconstruct it/adress the errors within it (and various other CHARISMATIC CIRCLES, including things which seem to be more low key but are just as much of an issue….such as the PROPHETIC/HOLY APOSTOLIC MOVEMENT with people like RICK Joyner, Pete Wagner, Kim Clement, & others, which you can find out more about at this excellent website, http://spiritoferror.wordpress.com/about/), I have come to the conclusion that one has to be knowledgeable on a MYRIAD of angles.

Prayerfully, I pray that everyone please consider these things before procedding. For anything less that inquiring as much as possible, getting all the facts, hearing all sides before making ABSOLUTE JUDGEMENTS that have widespread ramifications is either being BIASED, PARTIAL, or not righty dividing the Word of God…and that’d be dishonarable, which I believe is something no one here on the board wants to do.

It is my goal in any discussion to make certain that we’re all clear on every point…….as the Word says,

Proverbs 16:11
Honest scales and balances are from the LORD; all the weights in the bag are of his making.

Proverbs 11:1
The LORD abhors dishonest scales, but accurate weights are his delight.

Proverbs 20:23
The LORD detests differing weights, and dishonest scales do not please him.

Also, as the above proverbs say, it is UNJUST to place more weight on one issue if I’m not willing to give fair hearing to the other. Again, I must be open/willing to hear ALL SIDES AND NOT SHOW FAVORTISM. Anything less than asking as many questions as possible, getting all the facts, and seeking to be as objective/at least willing to admit the possibility of error in my side, and listening would be foolish.

Proverbs 18:13
He who answers before listening— that is his folly and his shame.

Proverbs 18:15
The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out.

Proverbs 18:17
The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and

 
Regarding the notion of Prophets being 100% accurate (with the Deuteronomy passage being quoted), I’ve come to wonder if perhaps that paticular passage is being viewed incorrectly in light of other scriptures.For example, the “100% accuracy” generally comes from this verse:
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Deuteronomy 13.1 ¶ If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;.3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
.4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
.6 ¶ If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
.8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
There are other ones, of course, related to this.However, I’ve often wondered what to make of the subject in light of this:
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“Now it came about when the king lived in his house, and the Lord had given him rest on every side from all his enemies, that the king said to Nathan the prophet, ‘See now, I dwell in a house of cedar, but the ark of God dwells within tent curtains.’ And Nathan said to the king, ‘Go, do all that is in your mind, for the Lord is with you.’” (2 Samuel 7:1-3)“But it came about in the same night that the word of the Lord came to Nathan, saying, ‘Go and say to My servant David, ‘Thus says the Lord,” Are you the one who should build Me a house to dwell in? For I have not dwelt in a house since the day I brought up the sons of Israel from Egypt, even to this day; but I have been moving about in a tent, even in a tabernacle. “Wherever I have gone with all the sons of Israel, did I speak a word with one of the tribes of Israel, which I commanded to shepherd My people Israel, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’”‘ (2 Samuel 7:4-7).
To both David, the king, and Nathan, it seemed to the prophet that David’s idea was something to go with. Nathan does not even consult the Lord about it. At David’s suggestion, Nathan, apart from inspiration, assures David that the Lord is with him in this endeavor. He was not speaking from God. He was not being “moved by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:20,21). He was simply following his impulse that such a plan must be a good thing.

Though David was sincere and genuine, and though it seems that he probably had a good and commendable idea, the Lord quickly let both Nathan and David know that such was not the case. And in the case of the Prophet, it was not 100% accuracey.It was a MISTAKE.
Why was he not stoned, killed, or ignored? Obvious was the fact that he wasn’t a false prophet because he messed up….and he was sincere in leading the people toward the Lord. But if 100% accuracey was apparently the way the Deuteronomy passage is to be interpreted, then why what appears to be the inconsistency?As one of my friends said on the subject, a plain reading of 2 Samuel 7:1-17 winds up the a not-necessarily-100% accuracy track record for even OT prophets as necessary to remain alive or even maintain one’s position as an OT prophet.In this text we read of David telling Nathan of his heart’s desire to build a temple for the Lord. Nathan’s response seemed fitting:
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“And Nathan said to the king, “Go, do all that is in your heart, for the Lord is with you’” (v.
3).
At this point our minds are called to attention again with the rule of exegesis regarding context. The very next verse begins with a conjunction which contrasts verse 4 and what follows there with verse 3.
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“But that same night the word of the Lord came to Nathan…”
In verses 5 and following, the Word of the Lord to Nathan differs completely from what Nathan the prophet told David to do.The text seems to indicate that Nathan made clear that he was offering what he believed/proclaimed was the heart of God…..as evidenced when he said “The Lord is with you, so do whatever is in your heart to do.” Saying that seems to be a definate statement indicating someone’s heart and not just their opinion. Perhaps it may’ve been different if he had said “I think that God is with you”, but the phrasing of his statement is where I’m thrown off. It seems that His statements implied that God was with David in WHATEVER DECISION HE MADE.Yet strangely, Nathan still lives and retains his position as prophet of God.
So, perhaps our definition of “mistakes”/accuracey needs to be reconsidered to see if it’d fit better/more consistently with the text. Otherwise, there are too many gaps/unresolved factors leftOr what of Samuel?
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1 Samuel 16:5-75 Samuel replied, “Yes, in peace; I have come to sacrifice to the LORD. Consecrate yourselves and come to the sacrifice with me.” Then he consecrated Jesse and his sons and invited them to the sacrifice.
6 When they arrived, Samuel saw Eliab and thought, “Surely the LORD’s anointed stands here before the LORD.”7 But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”
If perfect judgement/100% accuracey was the standard, then was Samuel fitting the Bill due to his lack of accuracey/perception here? There are other examples besides this…..but the general point I’m trying to make is that perhaps when it comes to our hermenutics we perhaps have some filters/pre-concieved notions that we’ve not truly compared with the WORD OF GOD and that we’re seeing the WORD of GOD through and need to reconsider.Other things worth considering and that I’ve always wondered about: On the point of prophesy, I’ve always wondered what to make of things such as I Timothy 1:18 & the prophecies made about Timothy
Paul highly valued the gift of prophecy (I Corinthians 14:1), for through prophecy important messages of warning & encouragement…..and Timothy had been set apart for ministry when elders laid their hands on Him (I Timothy 4:14)…and apparently, at this ceremony, several believers had prophesied about Timothy’s gifts and strengths. What to do with that (as well as I Thessalonians 5:19-21)

Perhaps, however, I’m seeing things wrongly……..

Again, if anyone has any thoughts, love to hear sometime….

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