EMISSARY^7 (G²)

COMMISIONED by CHRIST 4 SHARING HIS LIFE/KEEPING IT REAL ADMIST THE LIES (II Cor. 5:17-21))

For all Youth Ministers to hear (Part 2): Clarifications…..

Posted by Gabriel (G²) on November 19, 2007

 I love dialouge…….

For everyone’s benefit, I decided to post a discussion on the issue that took place at my other “lair” (CARM, www.carm.org). It was a discussion dealing with the question of whether or not HIP HOP can be HOLY and whether or not it’s simply a matter of music or culture to be avoided.

Be warned: THE DISCUSSIONS ARE LONG AND WILL TAKE UP SPACE since they took place over a period of 5 weeks, BUT IF YOU’RE willing to read, then I believe it intriguing for everyone to read. And here we go…..

  #1 
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  Can hip-hop be holy?

——————————————————————————–

Can hip-hop be holy?
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 07-26-2007    #2 
kkll4ever
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  Great question.

There are several Christians and Christian artists who believe that it can be. I don’t think that it can be because although it may attract non-Christian listeners or young Christian listeners, some are being trapped into accepting the total hip-hop culture, which is religious in base.

Below is a sight the promotes the religion of hip-hop. Notice the title of the site. Temple of Hip Hop.com

http://templeofhiphop.com/
This site is G Craig Lewis who is a very strong opponent not of “Chrisitan Rap”, but of Holy Hip Hop as contained in your question. And yes there are various responses to the way and method he uses, so if you are not use to this style of delivery, hopefully it will not detour you from listening and considering his perspective.
http://exministries.com/main.html
         

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 07-26-2007    #3 
playitloud
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by RAIDERJO76 
Can hip-hop be holy?

Have you listened to TobyMac?
hip-hop is a style, but often what goes with various styles are the attitudes. so you always need to watch the attitude.
So hip-hop can be used to share God’s love and truth.
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 07-26-2007    #4 
kkll4ever
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  You obvious have not studies HipHop. If you had, you would know it is more than a style. I provided some links in my previous post. If you still think HipHop is just a style, they are doing quite well with their marketing tactics.

Another thing you would notice in my comments is there is Christian Rap.
         

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 07-26-2007    #5 
playitloud
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by kkll4ever 
You obvious have not studies HipHop. If you had, you would know it is more than a style. I provided some links in my previous post. If you still think HipHop is just a style, they are doing quite well with their marketing tactics.

Another thing you would notice in my comments is there is Christian Rap.

You’re right in that I never studied hip-hop.
Have you ever listened to Tobymac?

I was in the rock-n-roll culture in my BC days, but rock-n-roll is still just a style of music. Now I understand that there can be a tendency toward certain attitudes while listening to a steady diet of heavy metal, but I don’t do that.

My son likes some Christian hip-hop and if that helps him in his walk with Jesus then I’m all for it. I may not listen to it myself, but I have my own styles that I like. I really like Delirious, Matt Redman, and some others that my son doesn’t care for as much.

You’re not going to win over the hip-hop crowd by wearing a suit-n-tie and speaking Old English to them.

Our desire is to win people to Jesus, not tell them what not to listen to.

Blessings to you bro.
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 07-26-2007    #6 
kkll4ever
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  playitloud wrote: Have you ever listened to Tobymac?

Yes. Followed him when he was with DC Talk. Diverse City is one of his album.

Cross Movement is another holy hiphopper
Da Truth is another holy hiphopper
KJ52 is another holy hiphopper
T-Bone is another holy hiphopper

They all have the same argument. It only a style. Well the founders of HipHop don’t see it as a style but as lifestyle, a way of living. KRS-One (Knowledge Reigh Supreme Over Everyone) sees himself as a preacher.

I not there now, but the templeofhiphop.com site used to have the HipHop ten commandments.

You need to check out the exministries.com website.
         

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 07-26-2007    #7 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by kkll4ever 
playitloud wrote: Have you ever listened to Tobymac?

Yes. Followed him when he was with DC Talk. Diverse City is one of his album.

Cross Movement is another holy hiphopper
Da Truth is another holy hiphopper
KJ52 is another holy hiphopper
T-Bone is another holy hiphopper

They all have the same argument. It only a style. Well the founders of HipHop don’t see it as a style but as lifestyle, a way of living. KRS-One (Knowledge Reigh Supreme Over Everyone) sees himself as a preacher.

I not there now, but the templeofhiphop.com site used to have the HipHop ten commandments.

You need to check out the exministries.com website.

I really have no desire to visit the templeofhiphop or other such sites.
For these people it may be their “religion” but it doesn’t mean that if you are playing hiphop style music that you are “buying in” to their religion.

So with that, I focus more on knowing Jesus and making disciples of Jesus rather than pointing out all the bad stuff.

Jesus was criticized by the religious leaders because he looked like the common man, ate with the common man, and did things that were “non-conventional” at the time.
So for all those using hiphop as a means to bring people to Jesus, may God bless them.

Grace and peace in Jesus.
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 07-26-2007    #8 
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  I was always taught as a parent, know what your kids are associating themselves with. I use to work as a youth pastor. And they all the time use the christian version to cover the non-Christian version. Do you really feel kids are that discerning?

But, it your choice.
         

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 07-26-2007    #9 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by kkll4ever 
I was always taught as a parent, know what your kids are associating themselves with. I use to work as a youth pastor. And they all the time use the christian version to cover the non-Christian version. Do you really feel kids are that discerning?

But, it your choice.

I listen to what my kids listen to so I know what they are listening to.
I take time to talk with my kids about what they listen to and watch and we talk about the attitudes and all.

They learn to discern. It’s our reponsibility to teach them discernment and not merely try to filter everything for them. They also need to have the freedom to make some mistakes under our care as well. I don’t want to raise my kids as little clones of me. (you remember the Steve Taylor song I Want to be a Clone)They are individuals and some of their tastes may be different than mine.
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 07-26-2007    #10 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by kkll4ever 
Great question.

There are several Christians and Christian artists who believe that it can be. I don’t think that it can be because although it may attract non-Christian listeners or young Christian listeners, some are being trapped into accepting the total hip-hop culture, which is religious in base.

Below is a sight the promotes the religion of hip-hop. Notice the title of the site. Temple of Hip Hop.com

http://templeofhiphop.com/
This site is G Craig Lewis who is a very strong opponent not of “Christian Rap”, but of Holy Hip Hop as contained in your question. And yes there are various responses to the way and method he uses, so if you are not use to this style of delivery, hopefully it will not detour you from listening and considering his perspective.
http://exministries.com/main.html

But isn’t the fact that it will attract non-believers a good thing? Isn’t it important to seek the lost?

I agree that there are many non-biblical “Christian” rappers, such as T-bone, at times can be, and that many people may idolize Christian rap. But if you look at some of them, like Da’ T.R.U.T.H., Lecrae, Cross Movement, these guys are strictly Biblical. They speak the truth, and don’t at all bring glory to themselves, but to God. I have definately been influenced into being this close to God because of this ministry. And it’s just so convicting; to be able to see God’s power in that He can even use these ex-thugs to be leaders and to bring Him glory.

Anyway, you’re welcome to your opinion, but do you really think holy hip-hop is that bad, even it’s strictly Biblical, without bragging, or anything?

I appreciate your response, Peace
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 07-26-2007    #11 
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  Are you familiar with G Craig Lewis? If yes, what do you think about his perspectives. Is all that he say not worthy of consideration?
         

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 07-26-2007    #12 
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  borrowed this from the youth section:
http://www.christiandiscussionforums…ad.php?t=33176
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 07-26-2007    #13 
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  Not exactly sure if this adds to the importance of understanding the culture of hiphop. If those represent Christian kids, they are making my point. The Christian/Non-Christian variety doesn’t seem to change there attitude that much.

I use to be a youth Pastor and this is what I’ve notice. They liked the music, but it wasn’t the popular stuff that made them feel part of their culture. So they would use Christian HipHop to cover for them listening to Non-Christian HipHop and they did not see much of a difference.
         

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 07-26-2007    #14 
RAIDERJO76
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  Quote:
You obvious have not studies HipHop. 

Just because we don’t have the same opinion as you doesn’t mean that we haevn’t studied it. Personally, I have grown up in a time and place were hip-hop is the “thing,” so I know enough about it. I used to listen to people like Snoop Dogg and Dr. Dre before I became a Christian; I know plenty about hip-hop.
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 07-26-2007    #15 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by kkll4ever 
Are you familiar with G Craig Lewis? If yes, what do you think about his perspectives. Is all that he say not worthy of consideration?

No I’m not familiar of him, and I believe that everybody is worthy of consideration (even rappers).
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Last edited by RAIDERJO76 : 07-26-2007 at 05:21 PM. Reason: messed up 
         

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 07-26-2007    #16 
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  I post a lot of holy hip-hop vids on my Youtube channel. I’ll provide the link so you can look at them and decide for yourself whether or not they are Biblical. The big video on the top of my Youtube page is of possibly the most well-known Christian rapper, Da’ T.R.U.T.H. explaining why hip-hop is being used. I think it’s a good video to watch so that you can at least look at it from their point of view and see what they’re trying to do with this music. Here’s the link:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=RAIDERJO76
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 07-26-2007    #17 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by kkll4ever 
Not exactly sure if this adds to the importance of understanding the culture of hiphop. If those represent Christian kids, they are making my point. The Christian/Non-Christian variety doesn’t seem to change there attitude that much.

I use to be a youth Pastor and this is what I’ve notice. They liked the music, but it wasn’t the popular stuff that made them feel part of their culture. So they would use Christian HipHop to cover for them listening to Non-Christian HipHop and they did not see much of a difference.

Well the music doesn’t have to sound different. What matters is the CONTEXT of the music. That is the most important thing. Just like if somebody used the style of music that they would use to worship God back in the day, and used it in a context that didn’t glorify God, it wouldn’t be right. That is what these guys are doing, except the opposite. The music itself doesn’t matter, it’s the context, and that’s the difference between worldly hip-hop and holy hip-hop.
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 07-26-2007    #18 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by RAIDERJO76 
Can hip-hop be holy?

Depends upon the perspective. For example you can take a post-punk-secular-song like Nouvello Vague’s “I Melt With You” (a remake of Modern English who wrote the song and released it in ’82) and begin to realize the song makes a great love song between the Holt Spirit and yourself.

Here are the lyrics:
Moving forward using all my breath
Making love to you was never second best
I saw the world thrashing all around your face
Never really knowing it was always mesh and lace

I’ll stop the world and melt with you
You’ve seen the difference and it’s getting better all the time
There’s nothing you and I won’t do
I’ll stop the world and melt with you

Dream of better lives the kind which never hate
Dropped in the state of imaginary grace
I made a pilgrimage to save this humans race
Yes I did
What I’m comprehending a race that long gone bye

I’ll stop the world and melt with you
You’ve seen the difference and it’s getting better all the time
There’s nothing you and I won’t do
I’ll stop the world and melt with you

The future’s open wide
I’ll stop the world and melt with you
You’ve seen the difference and it’s getting better all the time
There’s nothing you and I won’t do
I’ll stop the world and melt with you, yeah
I’ll stop the world and melt with you
I’ll stop the world and melt with you, yeah, yeah
__________________

Oh Lord, we ask that we would become wise in your counsel. And if through folly we should consider ourselves wise and become fools, then we ask that you send to us ministering spirits who speak of your majesty and teach us in humility, for it is through their humility that we shall recognize that they are your servants.
         

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 07-26-2007    #19 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Landstrom 
Depends upon the perspective. For example you can take a post-punk-secular-song like Nouvello Vague’s “I Melt With You” (a remake of Modern English who wrote the song and released it in ’82) and begin to realize the song makes a great love song between the Holt Spirit and yourself.

Here are the lyrics:
Moving forward using all my breath
Making love to you was never second best
I saw the world thrashing all around your face
Never really knowing it was always mesh and lace

I’ll stop the world and melt with you
You’ve seen the difference and it’s getting better all the time
There’s nothing you and I won’t do
I’ll stop the world and melt with you

Dream of better lives the kind which never hate
Dropped in the state of imaginary grace
I made a pilgrimage to save this humans race
Yes I did
What I’m comprehending a race that long gone bye

I’ll stop the world and melt with you
You’ve seen the difference and it’s getting better all the time
There’s nothing you and I won’t do
I’ll stop the world and melt with you

The future’s open wide
I’ll stop the world and melt with you
You’ve seen the difference and it’s getting better all the time
There’s nothing you and I won’t do
I’ll stop the world and melt with you, yeah
I’ll stop the world and melt with you
I’ll stop the world and melt with you, yeah, yeah

I agree. There are some “Christian” rappers that seem to praise God one minute, but the next brag about their rims, or something like that. But there are also Christians like Da’ T.R.U.T.H., Lecrae, KJ52, and Cross Movement that are clearly Biblical and glorify Christ with their music. I don’t think the music matters, whether it’s hip-hop, rock, etc, but the context in which the music is used that matters; that’s what seperates secular hip-hop from holy hip-hop, and I think that as long as these rappers keep spittin’ the Truth, there’s nothing wrong with it, regardless of what style of music is being used.
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 07-27-2007    #20 
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  Using the style of the music. This maybe what they are doing. But as you know based on your comments, for the holy hip-hoppers they dress, act, live the part. I’ve observed this for years, even use them in ministering to youth. It doesn’t seem to make a big difference from what the kids were saying.

This was the questions I would ask. What do think about Christian rap (I don’t use the term hiphop)? What do think about non-Christian hiphop?

It’s sad, but some of these guys even mix and mingle with the non-Chrisitian hip-hoppers. Which is one of the points I must agree with G Craig on. Mixing the sacred with the secular is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible actually teaches the opposite.

And when you say context of music, what does this mean?

Another question. In your honest oppinion, do you feel that the church by using this music has captures more young people for Christ? I mean, kids that are really on fire?

From reading the link playitloud provided, what was your take? Did you read these kids (I assume these were all kids) comments and felt they had a conversation that glorified God?
   #21 
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  I’m very famlliar with Christian Rap. I use to take my kids to Chrisitan rap concert a while ago. At that time, there was Dynamic Twins, SFC, JC and the Boys, DC Talk…

At that time, from all that I could remember is they called it Christian Rap and not HipHop.

You and many seem to just think that HipHop is just HipHop and are often really thrown when presented with additional information. But to be truthful, I don’t think you are unaware of how worldly hiphoppers see hiphop and that they see it not as just a style, but as a religion.

Kids are curious and many are buying into the lifestyle, even the religious aspect and the church instead of wanting to know and learn regarding the history, origin, purpose, just take it (hiphop), give it to the kids and then don’t understand why the statisitics regarding immorality, drugs, , pregancies, alcohol use/abuse, imodest attire, attitudes among “Christian Youth” is not different than non-Christian youth.

May Christian leaders, parents and others are asking what is causing our youth to be just like the world, just like the world, but vehemently toss out the possible that it maybe part and partial do to the Christianize version of the music the youth are listening to.

Since you stated everyone is worthy of consideration (I truly hoped you did not mean everyone), but at least G Craig. Go and check him out. Would love to hear what you think.

To me, when it comes to youth, everything is up for consideration as to what is drawing them away from Christ and if they are attending church, are they plugged in or just attending because the have to.
         

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 07-27-2007    #22 
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  Quote:
But as you know based on your comments, for the holy hip-hoppers they dress, act, live the part. 

What’s wrong with how they dress? Where is that in the Bible?

It is true that some things in the hip-hop culture are VERY ungodly, but other things in the culture, such as the clothes aren’t that bad, in my opinion. To me, all that matters is that they follow Christ.
Quote:
What do think about non-Christian hiphop?
 

It’s very bad.
Quote:
Mixing the sacred with the secular is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible actually teaches the opposite.
 

True, and I completely agree. But not ALL Christian rappers mix secular and Biblical concepts in their music. You are ASSUMING that just because SOME “Christian” rappers do this, ALL do. You can’t completely judge all of Christian hip-hop because of this. This doesn’t make all Christian hip-hop bad. What about the Christian rappers who don’t do this? What about the Christian hip-hoppers who are strictly Biblical?
Quote:
And when you say context of music, what does this mean?
 

The lyrics, the message, the concept promoted. If hip-hop only promotes giving your life to Chist, and living for Him, and glorifying Him, and NOT sinning; if this is the message it teaches, can hip-hop be holy?
Quote:
Another question. In your honest oppinion, do you feel that the church by using this music has captures more young people for Christ? I mean, kids that are really on fire?
 

Oh, definately! I’m a perfect example. Used to listen to Eminem, Snoop Dogg, Dr. Dre, and all those guys. Started getting into Christianity a bit; went to church sometimes, but still hadn’t given my life to the Lord. I found out about a Christian rapper named Lecrae, bought his cd, and through him found out about other Christian rappers. And because of the context of their music, and because of the fact that I was able to relate to the music and culture they were using, I became inspired to give my life to the Lord. And I know I wouldn’t be close to where I am now if God hadn’t used this ministry. And there are tons of people that have had the same happen. Trust me, I know; this ministry saves lives.
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 07-27-2007    #23 
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  RAIDERJO76 wrote: What’s wrong with how they dress? Where is that in the Bible?

Sorry, but this is the all time most popular reply. People dress in accordance to want to be associated with. Here are some scriptures. I flip their objection around and ask them, what is right with it?

1Ti 2:9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

I don’t think the female community of Christians know this verse is in scripture. If you search the bible, it addresses men/boys/males in what the see, it addressed ladies/girls/female in what they wear. If you have male driven by visual stimulus and females by attire, men have greater lustful influence because ladies have lustful appearance.

Again, if we are to win the young back to Christ, should we not consider that the attire is playing a role? Most of the attire I see our “Christian HipHoppers” wearing is the designs of Non-Christian hiphoppers. I was taught the only name that a Christian ought to wear is the name of Christ.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: True, and I completely agree. But not ALL Christian rappers mix secular and Biblical concepts in their music. You are ASSUMING that just because SOME “Christian” rappers do this, ALL do.

And who discern those who do from those who do not? And more importantly, do the kids even go there. You must admit they do not. Yes, I make some assumptions, but do you not as well. When thinking about it, aren’t you made aware of what you asserted in your comments. Your own words assert that some mix sacred and secular and this is not good. Now how to the youth, who are most times left to themselves, process this. Them same way it is displayed. I would venture to say that most of the youth even in your church has more non-Christian hiphop on their IPODS then the Chrisitan variety. Don’t you want to know why? And we must need to know why or somehow learn of God how to truly win them for God.

Barna Research Group do a lot of statistics. In one of their statistics, they noted that only 1 in 4 youth who participated in youth church regularly, stuck with it when they became adults.

Check out this verse:
Pro 29:15The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left [to himself] bringeth his mother to shame.

Now how many kids are left to themselves and the church, parents, mostly everyone uses music as one of the bady sitters?

RAIDERJO76 wrote: You can’t completely judge all of Christian hip-hop because of this.

My comments are to us who are suppose to be showing others how to find Christ as their Lord. Today’s “Chrisitian” approach is trying to take the red color out of the cherry coolaid. Meaning, if it has some good, then it is not wise to be contempt of the whole.

In light of the above, what do you think about this verse:

Gal 5:9A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: The lyrics, the message, the concept promoted. If hip-hop only promotes giving your life to Chist, and living for Him, and glorifying Him, and NOT sinning; if this is the message it teaches, can hip-hop be holy?

One verse for you to think about:Rom 1:18¶For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Are there any Christian rappers doing the above and are you aware who they and letting others know of the risk?

RAIDERJO76 wrote: Oh, definately! I’m a perfect example. Used to listen to Eminem, Snoop Dogg, Dr. Dre, and all those guys. Started getting into Christianity a bit; went to church sometimes, but still hadn’t given my life to the Lord. I found out about a Christian rapper named Lecrae, bought his cd, and through him found out about other Christian rappers. And because of the context of their music, and because of the fact that I was able to relate to the music and culture they were using, I became inspired to give my life to the Lord. And I know I wouldn’t be close to where I am now if God hadn’t used this ministry. And there are tons of people that have had the same happen. Trust me, I know; this ministry saves lives.

Great testimony. But has anyone considered how many are being lost and what is the quality of the relationship with Christ? I know this is very subjective, but many a Christian are not Chrisitan at all, just those hanging out.
         

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 07-27-2007    #24 
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  Hmm..Hitler wore suits, preachers wear suits, therefore preachers are trying to identify with Hitler. Stalin liked the Opera, many preachers do, therefore preachers are associating themselves with the likes of Stalin. The secular world drives cars, the Christian drives a car, therefore Christians are immitating the secular world in an ongodly way.

Well, that’s the logic you’re using so far. A less extreme example might be in order. Say you have a preacher that talks very heavily southern and when working in the yard wears tank tops. Say he even lives in a trailer and listens to country music. His neighboor who is a drunk and racist does the same. Are they trying to imitate one another? I don’t think so. It’s a matter of practicallity (tank tops are good shirts to wear when working in heat, and neither might be able to afford a better house) as well as culture to start with.

The same kind of thing applies to hiphop and any other culture and sub-culture. Christians are not to be THAT distinct from the world in terms of: accent, clothing, possesions, hair styles, tools used, media access, ect. We ARE to be distinct in our conduct both private and public and proclaimed faith.
         

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 07-27-2007    #25 
kkll4ever
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  ThePheonix wrote: Hmm..Hitler wore suits, preachers wear suits, therefore preachers are trying to identify with Hitler. Stalin liked the Opera, many preachers do, therefore preachers are associating themselves with the likes of Stalin. The secular world drives cars, the Christian drives a car, therefore Christians are immitating the secular world in an ongodly way.

Well, that’s the logic you’re using so far.

I would agree if this was indeed the way I was thinking. To borrow from your comments, Hitler wore a german uniform, does that mean he was just dressing in a costume. If cars have defects, should we not study them to find where the defects are or do we just ignore the defects and increase the risks of driving.

What I am proposing is not leaving any stone unturn in respect to what is causing the continual demise of the youth culture.

You may have been following the news that in one state consentual sex between 14 years is not longer illegal. I guess this is societies response to “they are going to do it anyway.”

Unfortunately the church sort of takes the same approach. Adjust God down to them, instead of seeing how to bring them up to God.

Question everyone: Can anyone think of one thing that would elevate the youth of today to give up being a typical youth and be absolutely committed “TO GOD ONLY?”

And none of all this fence sitting, even practiced by adults.

ThePheonix wrote: A less extreme example might be in order. Say you have a preacher that talks very heavily southern and when working in the yard wears tank tops. Say he even lives in a trailer and listens to country music. His neighboor who is a drunk and racist does the same. Are they trying to imitate one another? I don’t think so. It’s a matter of practicallity (tank tops are good shirts to wear when working in heat, and neither might be able to afford a better house) as well as culture to start with.

I really like your thinking and examples. They are well crafted. But they are the angle from which I’m coming. Through the two a dressed the same, they don’t have the same intent. As matter of fact, I don’t think attire has anything to do with either of their actions.

However, choice of attire, particuarly to kids (if you are or have been one, you know this is true) clothes is at least 75% of how they express themselves is through their clothes. So in your tank top example, I don’t think they were expressing themselves, just by coincedent wearing the same type of attire.

My point with respect to attire is that if, if we know that at 75% of a kids expression is seen by what the wear, we can use this to identify they are spiritual, where they are in respect to whether their choice of music is having a Christian or non-Christian impact on them. This applies to both genders.

ThePheonix wrote: The same kind of thing applies to hiphop and any other culture and sub-culture. Christians are not to be THAT distinct from the world in terms of: accent, clothing, possesions, hair styles, tools used, media access, ect. We ARE to be distinct in our conduct both private and public and proclaimed faith.

This is reason for providing scripture. Don’t know where this philosophy came from, but it didn’t come from scripture. I’m sure the replies to this is going to fun. Anyhow, here are some additional scripture that speak to Christian being different. Before the scriptures let me say that “if we were not different, the world would not be trying to eradicate Christians out of society as a whole.”

Jhn 15:19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

1Ti 2:9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1Pe 3:3Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
In short and I’ve been through a few times already, is that we be about God’s business of making disciples of Jesus and not just console ourselves with our youth services are full but our youth are not getting filled with the love of Jesus Christ.
         

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 07-27-2007    #26 
playitloud
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by kkll4ever 
Using the style of the music. This maybe what they are doing. But as you know based on your comments, for the holy hip-hoppers they dress, act, live the part. I’ve observed this for years, even use them in ministering to youth. It doesn’t seem to make a big difference from what the kids were saying.

This was the questions I would ask. What do think about Christian rap (I don’t use the term hiphop)? What do think about non-Christian hiphop?

It’s sad, but some of these guys even mix and mingle with the non-Chrisitian hip-hoppers. Which is one of the points I must agree with G Craig on. Mixing the sacred with the secular is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible actually teaches the opposite.

And when you say context of music, what does this mean?

Another question. In your honest oppinion, do you feel that the church by using this music has captures more young people for Christ? I mean, kids that are really on fire?

From reading the link playitloud provided, what was your take? Did you read these kids (I assume these were all kids) comments and felt they had a conversation that glorified God?

You know what? Jimmy Swaggert was dead said against rock-n-roll back when with the same types of arguments. We all survived that and lots of young people came to know Jesus anyway.
One band that really stood out was Jerusalem. Ulf Christianson would preach a stong message at their concerts. I read a review some time ago about one of their concerts and it was very favorable.

No, some of the kids don’t know what they are talking about, and some may be lacking in discernment, but our primary focus sould be to love and encourage each other in the work of the Lord.

I’m still rockin and my name is on the roll (in heaven).
Because Jesus is the rock of my salvation.

Blessings to you today.
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 07-27-2007    #27 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by kkll4ever 
Great question.

There are several Christians and Christian artists who believe that it can be. I don’t think that it can be because although it may attract non-Christian listeners or young Christian listeners, some are being trapped into accepting the total hip-hop culture, which is religious in base.

Below is a sight the promotes the religion of hip-hop. Notice the title of the site. Temple of Hip Hop.com

http://templeofhiphop.com/
This site is G Craig Lewis who is a very strong opponent not of “Chrisitan Rap”, but of Holy Hip Hop as contained in your question. And yes there are various responses to the way and method he uses, so if you are not use to this style of delivery, hopefully it will not detour you from listening and considering his perspective.
http://exministries.com/main.html

BRAH, YOU KNOW ABOUT G.CRAIG???!!!!! THANK GOD!!!!!!I thought I was the only one who knew about Him at this site. He came to my church once when I was about to leave for college, and the message that the Lord gave him truly changed my life!!!!!!
Loved how he broke it down and made clear that MUSIC IS NEVER JUST MUSIC…….and how he really not only made it clear to understand , like the Word says that “Death and LIFE ARE IN THE POWER OF THE TOUNGE” (Proverbs 18:20-21), but that those who listen to HIP HOP may be decieving themselves if they believed that “Music is Just Music and the Words don’t affect me!!!”

Galatians 6:7-10
Quote:
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. 
You reap whatever you sow into—-sin in any form always corrupts and when left unchecked makes a person progresively worse in character (especially if it’s in the form of music since your mind will record ANYTHING that has music associated with it and you’ll end up unintentionally thinking on/acting on the things you heard simply for the sake of hearing “the beats”-and there are only so many times you can listen to “SLAP IT/SHAKE IT/ SMACK IT” and not want to do the same), and it’s sad that many Christians have forgotten this as if it’s of no consequence and wonder why they never seem to be able to walk in HOLINESS/.Victory over the things of the Flesh.

Moreover, if God’s baseline standard is that any thing obscene/degrading or dirty/foolish and simply not in line with his character should not be allowed or participated at all, why are we as Christians trying to do the same with HIP HOP instead of leaving the movement/any ties to it alone? By all means, keep Christian Rap since RAP IN AND OF ITSELF ISN’T BAD and can be a beautiful thing…..and the same could be said of other things such as Dance/MC ‘ing and Spoken Word since those things didn’t start within the movement itself also, and even things like accenst, clothing (like “Old Skool”, “South Pole”, Baggy Jeans, etc……though that’s not including many of the IMMODEST WAYS THAT MAny dress up and that those should be accepted), possesions, hair styles,and things that are commonly seen within the movement…..but the MOVEMENT/CULTURE OF HIP HOP ITSELF, especially when considering the orgins of it but the majority of things that are promoted by it? I’m not so sure

Ephesians 5:3-12

3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a]

6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.
8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.
Thanks for bringing G.Craig up Brah. By the way, do you have any of his DVD’s (I stopped at “Anti-Christ Superstar”/”The Truth Behind Rock”)
__________________
 Proverbs 18:15
15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge;
the ears of the wise seek it out.

——————————————————————————–
Last edited by Double-G (G²) : 07-27-2007 at 03:02 PM. 
         

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 07-27-2007    #28 
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  playitloud wrote: You know what? Jimmy Swaggert was dead said against rock-n-roll back when with the same types of arguments. We all survived that and lots of young people came to know Jesus anyway.

And many more are eternally condemned. Remember, broad is the way that leads to destruction. So do are telling that R&R is what brought you to Christ. If anything, it hindered you from receiving him sooner.

Most people who testify tell this, “I would have received Jesus sooner if it wasn’t for my music, friends, lifestyle…”

It is the gospel that saved you and I, not the music. Not the music at all.

If I wasn’t so on the front line like I mentioned before, I would be standing right by your side, because I use to use the same arguments.

But as you saw me state elsewhere, what are we doing to save people? And why do we just keep consoling ourselves with all the arguments that everybody used, but more and more and more it’s getting worse and worse and what does the Church do, change again to “meet people where they are.”

playitloud wrote: No, some of the kids don’t know what they are talking about, and some may be lacking in discernment, but our primary focus sould be to love and encourage each other in the work of the Lord.

You’re reading into my statements again. I’ll say it again. There is a crisis and it would not be wise for use to not consider everything as a contributing factor. For every kid that is led to Christ through Christ HipHop, I sure there is a corresponding number that is lead into HipHop. As a matter of fact, some of the church kids are getting their first introduction into the world of HipHop through the church.

Christian today are really lazy when it comes to spiritual warfare. While Satan is coming to church and sitting on the front seat, playing, singing in the worship band, sometime preaching the gospel(not), we keep trying to tell everyone who say let’s fight together to find how Satan is stilling our children right from under our noses, you are like Jimmy, Simmy, I wanna win an Emmy(word).

Like I saidn previously, It’s your choice.

Did you check out G Craig site? It is a Christian site by the way.

And by the way, I’m glad your kid name is on the roll. So what do we do about those that are not? The great commission.
         

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 07-27-2007    #29 
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  I forgot to add. Most of the flack that G Craig get is not from the young. It’s from adults. Adults telling him he’s arrogant, conceited, crazy, way out, don’t know what he is talking about. The kids on the hand are shaking their heads yes, yes, yes, because they know. The kids ask questions. The kids want to know more. The kids are surprise to know what they were actually into.

This has been my experience as well. When I talked to the young, they validate some of the things posted and don’t give the throw back like is seen here.
         

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 07-27-2007    #30 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by kkll4ever 
playitloud wrote: You know what? Jimmy Swaggert was dead said against rock-n-roll back when with the same types of arguments. We all survived that and lots of young people came to know Jesus anyway.

And many more are eternally condemned. Remember, broad is the way that leads to destruction. So do are telling that R&R is what brought you to Christ. If anything, it hindered you from receiving him sooner.

Most people who testify tell this, “I would have received Jesus sooner if it wasn’t for my music, friends, lifestyle…”

It is the gospel that saved you and I, not the music. Not the music at all.

If I wasn’t so on the front line like I mentioned before, I would be standing right by your side, because I use to use the same arguments.

But as you saw me state elsewhere, what are we doing to save people? And why do we just keep consoling ourselves with all the arguments that everybody used, but more and more and more it’s getting worse and worse and what does the Church do, change again to “meet people where they are.”

playitloud wrote: No, some of the kids don’t know what they are talking about, and some may be lacking in discernment, but our primary focus sould be to love and encourage each other in the work of the Lord.

You’re reading into my statements again. I’ll say it again. There is a crisis and it would not be wise for use to not consider everything as a contributing factor. For every kid that is led to Christ through Christ HipHop, I sure there is a corresponding number that is lead into HipHop. As a matter of fact, some of the church kids are getting their first introduction into the world of HipHop through the church.

Christian today are really lazy when it comes to spiritual warfare. While Satan is coming to church and sitting on the front seat, playing, singing in the worship band, sometime preaching the gospel(not), we keep trying to tell everyone who say let’s fight together to find how Satan is stilling our children right from under our noses, you are like Jimmy, Simmy, I wanna win an Emmy(word).

Like I saidn previously, It’s your choice.

Did you check out G Craig site? It is a Christian site by the way.

And by the way, I’m glad your kid name is on the roll. So what do we do about those that are not? The great commission.

Please do not put words in my mouth.
Quote:
So do are telling that R&R is what brought you to Christ. 

I never said this. Jesus saved me based on the Gospel, not the music.
Music is just an opportunity to present the Gospel as I shared. Did you not read what I wrote about the group Jerusalem?

Well it matters not…. what matters is maturing in my walk with Jesus, which includes reaching the lost with the Gospel, so why all the fuss about rock-n-roll and hip-hop?

God is sovereign, so just do what God has called you to do, I’ll do the same.
We should all encourage one another and bring glory to His Holy Name.
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 07-27-2007    #31 
kkll4ever
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  People continue to try and interpet my meaning all the time. This was just my attempt to better understand your perspective. I apologize If I put words in your mouth.

I’m just challenging Christian to not being naive and extorting others to be naive as well. I try and appreciate peoples ability to think and consider things they may not have considered. On the site, some would say, don’t worry are what the enemy is doing and at another place, people would say “know thou enemy.”

I say, know the truth.

playitloud wrote: God is sovereign, so just do what God has called you to do, I’ll do the same.
We should all encourage one another and bring glory to His Holy Name.

That is what is being attempted. But people for some reason find it really differcult to step out of their comfort zone.

As we are to encourage, we should also exhort one another to good works. No doubt my fault is in the way that I’m saying it, but this what I’m trying to say.

Hbr 10:24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
         

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 07-27-2007    #32 
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  Yes, I know G Craig. I went to one of his conderences and was solely amazed and impressed. I do remember thinking he must get some real flack.

I was really suprise to hear that there were hiphop artist trying to sue him. Christian and Non-christians.
         

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 07-27-2007    #33 
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  did you notice my little rhyme?
Quote:
God is sovereign, so just do what God has called you to do, I’ll do the same.
We should all encourage one another and bring glory to His Holy Name. 

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 07-27-2007    #34 
Double-G (G²)
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   Some thoughts….on the issue of Christian HIP HOP

——————————————————————————–

Quote:
1 Corinthians 11:14-15
14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 

[/quote]

Regarding the issue of HIP HOP and taking/practicing things that the culture around you may do in HOLY HIP HOP, I had some thoughts I’d like to share…(bear with me, though, cause they’e pretty lengthy/detailed)

In talking about head coverings and length of hair, Paul was saying that believers should look and behave in ways that are HONORABLE within their own culture. In many cultures long hair on men is considered appropriate and masculine.

In Corinth, however, it was thought to be a sign of male prostitution in the pagan temples. And Women with short hair were labeled as prostitutes…..and what Paul was saying was that in the Corinthian Culture, Christian women should keep their hair long, for if short hair on women was a sign of prostitution, then a Christian woman with short hair would find it even more difficult to be a believable witness for Jesus Christ.
Paul wasn’t saying that we should adopt ALL the practices of our culture, but that we should avoid the appearances and behavior that DETRACT from our ultimate goal of being believable witnesses for Jesus while demonstrating our Christian Faith.

Regarding Hip Hop, their are many things within the culture itself that are not inherently wrong of themselves and that shouldn’t be a problem doing—things, for example, like Rap or Dance, M-Ceeing, and even some of the dress styles as well as languages.
However, minus the fact of whether or not the practice is even condoned in Scripture, if the things that Christians are doing are representive of something that those in HIP HOP do that are praised, then it would be best not to do those things. There have been many Holy Hip-Hoppers who would claim that their heart’s intent was to win Souls for Christ—-and though many of them may’ve been sincere, their actions inadvertently lead to making other young Christians more attracted to/acceptable of the Hip Hop Culture than they were to being like Jesus.

When someone like PEDITEE, for example, wears a grill and practically looks like a THUG on His ALBULM COVER……….

Or a group like GRITS uses the same terminology someone in HIP HOP would use to make a point (as they did on the song “Memories” On their “REDEMPTION” Cd when they used the phrase “Shag it ROTTEN” to describe their taking ownership of something because that’s how the culture is…………
Or someone feels they have to grab their crotch whenever they’re doing a song cause they how the rappers do it in REAL HIP HOP, or feels that it’s OK to dress immodestly/have FAR TOO MUCH SKIN showing because that’s what’s going on at BET,

Or when someone at a Youth Group takes the mike, begins to rap, and begins to call the youths to yell “WHAT’S MY NAME???!!!” OR raps more about themselves than they do about the Lord while also trying to speak Scripture to them occasionally……

Or when someone gets on stage and does the EXACT same dance moves they saw on BET OR WOULD SEE IN THE CLUB (as Holy Hip Hopper CANTON JONES did when he went to a church I attended called ELIZABETH BAPTIST CHURCH in Atlanta, Ga, for a Music/Youth Rally had the ENTIRE audience of youths doing the DANCE FROM THE LAFFTY TAFFY SONG, to the point where the youths were literally up on each other/bumping and grinding and you couldn’t tell the difference between the church and the club!!!),….
When you do all those things you can inevitably draw attention to the Movement, as if you’re praising it because you’re mimicking nearly everything the movement of HIP HOP DOES itself does. The kids (as is often the case) will flock to it——that, and the fact that those who are not Christians don’t take Christians seriously because, thought their Words/Terminology may be Christian; they look Almost EXACTLY THE SAME AS THOSE IN THE WORLD DO.

To an unsaved person in Hip Hop, many may not even care to listen to those who are saved Holy-Hip hoppers and may say, “There’s no need for me to come to Christ/ya’lls side, cause ya’ll already look JUST LIKE ME…AND AS A MATTER OF FACT, THERE’S NO NEED TO CHANGE BECUASE YA’LL ARE DOING THE SAME THINGS I’M ALREADY ABOUT. SEEMS LIKE YA”LL WANTS TO BE MORE LIKE ME THAN ANYTHING ELSE…..”

Also, how much of a resemblance do you see often with what appears to be a GREAT majority of Artists within HOLY HIP HOP to what JESUS LOOKED LIKE and how He lived life?
By no means do all HOLY-HIP HOPPERS ACT THE SAME….and there are many who are sincerely seeking to demonstrate what it means to be sold out to Christ. And many of them, contrary to what many may believe, are TRULY MAKING A DIFFERENCE FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD. A good example would be a Holy Hip Hopper by the name of JOHN THE Baptist OR aka: “Johnny Bapt” (His Cd was “Baptize the Game”. )

He goes to my church and was present when G.Craig came to visit once/spoke on “The Truth Behind HIP HOP”…..Growing up on the streets and in the Hip Hop Culture, He knows what it was like and how to relate to the youths.

Even had a meeting with the G.Craig and dialogued with him on the many things they agreed on (i.e. the need for People to EXALT CHRIST more than HOLY HIP-HOP, the need to stop using Gimmicks/Fun Activities to win young people to Christ when in fact many of them are MORE THAN HUNGRY to grow in Christ but are simply not seeing Youth Ministers challenge them in studying the Word and teaching them the things they need in order to be effective DISCIPLES for Christ.
However, though Craig disagreed with Johnny on some things on Holy Hip Hop, they still respect each other. Johnny is still heavily involved in the church. He’s one of the Children’s Church Ministers and does an EXCELLENT job leading them in memorizing the Word/showing them how it applies to Everyday life, and He works hard at whatever He does.

However, He always CONSTANTLY reminds people TO LOOK first and FOREMOST AT JESUS, not HIM……and He diligently makes sure that in his music he’s simply RAPPING/NOT PROMOTING THE MOVEMENT OF SECULAR HIP HOP above the WORD OF GOD or the POWER OF HIS GRACE. Unlike other Holy Hip Hoppers, He’s the only one who I’ve ever see walk in the Power of God…..and even in conerts where he has to entertain the kids, he’s one of the only ones’ TO ACTUALLY STOP A CONCERT MIDWAY AND CALL PEOPLE or Issues OUT or PREACH THE GOSPEL while giving calls to REPENTANCE……and, as I’ve witnessed and experienced myself, many people were truly impacted, convicted and stirred to become better DISCIPLES OFCHRIST.
As Scripture says, Believers when they are saved are to disengage themselves from all forms of false religion and make a clean break from all sinful habits and old IDOLATAROUS practices (essentially anything glorifying themselves rather than the FATHER):

Quote:
2 Corinthians 6:14-17

Do Not Be Yoked With Unbelievers

14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial[a]?

What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”[b]
17″Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”[c] 

And that’s exactly what Johnny does. He doesn’t promote the things within the culture of HIP HOP which are Unbiblical and inherently EVIL, nor does He go and join forces with the same foul rappers that are on stage representing it (as some Holy Hip Hoppers have done)……but neither does he deny that there are some practices which have legitimate merit and are not inherently wrong by nature.

Minus the fact that the clothes are Modest/decent, He doesn’t refuse to wear uniforms from clothing lines like “Ecko”, “Paco”, “Fubu” or “South POLE …..Nor does he condemn those who do so simply because someone in Hip Hop was wearing it and therefore the clothing line itself is now contaminated. Falling for that kind of thinking is exactly what the Corinthians were doing.
CONTINUED IN NEXT POST….
__________________
 Proverbs 18:15
15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge;
the ears of the wise seek it out.

——————————————————————————–
Last edited by Double-G (G²) : 07-27-2007 at 06:31 PM. 
         

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 07-27-2007    #35 
Double-G (G²)
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——————————————————————————–

Quote:

1 Corinthians 8:1-

1 Corinthians 8

Food Sacrificed to Idols

1Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge.[a] Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God.

4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

7But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, won’t he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols?

11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall. 

Regarding the CONTEXT of the verse, the Greeks/Romans were polytheistic (worshiping many gods) and polydemonistic (believing in many evil spirits). They believed that evil spirits would try to invade human beings by attaching themselves to food before it was eaten, and that the spirits could be removed only by the food’s being sacrificed to a god. The sacrifice was not meant to only gain favor with the gods, but to cleanse the meat from demonic contamination….and such decontaminated meat was offered to the gods as a sacrifice.

That which was not burned on the altar was served at wicked pagan feasts, and what was left was sold in the market. And the reason Paul dealt with it here was because after conversion, believers RESENTED eating such food bought out of idol markets, because it reminded SENSITIVE Gentile Believers of their previous pagan lives/demonic worship.
Paul and other mature believers knew better than to be bothered by such food offered once to idols and then sold in the marketplace. They knew the deities didn’t exist and that EVIL SPIRITS COULD NOT CONTAMINATE THE FOOD that needed to be eaten.

That being said, the same can be said of things within the HIP HOP culture that are accepted by many Christians. Simply because someone within Hip Hop wears something (like TIMBERLAND shoes, or URBAN CLOTHING of some sort) does not mean that a Christian who does the same is somehow CONTAMINATED because of where that particular HIP Hopper stood or because he believe in something that was wrong……and to say that the Clothes should be forbidden seems RASH at best……Apply the same logic to the things that we wear but make no fuss about like “Fruit of the Loom”, “Tommy Hilfiger”.

Would I dismiss them as well because they came from a SECULAR SOURCE or were possibly made by someone who denied Christ? Apply that Logic to it’s natural extent and you probably wouldn’t be wearing NOR using much of ANYTHING (whether it be cars or jewelry, makeup, equipment, etc) since it at some point it came from, was used by or was made by someone who wasn’t a Christian and by buying it, you’re representing them AUTOMATICALLY. And if you did do so but still wanted to call out those who wore clothing styles (Modest Ones/General Ones, of course) that many with the HIP HOP Culture happen to use as well, you probably are coming off Hypocritical at best.

The issue is one of CHRISTIAN FREEDOM, which Christ died for us to have…And just as Paul encouraged the Corinthians to buy whatever meat was in the market (I Corinthians 10:25-27), so it can also be said that there’s no need to condemn those who wear ANY KIND of URBAN WEAR that may be associated with Hip Hop.

Honestly, when we become too worried about our EVERY ACTION, we become LEGALISTIC and cannot enjoy life. Everything belongs to God (I Corinthians 10:25), and he has given us ALL things to enjoy. And if we know something is a problem, then we can deal with it……but we don’t need to be “nit-picky”/ going out looking for problems.

CONTINUED IN NEXT POST….
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15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge;
the ears of the wise seek it out.
         

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 07-27-2007    #36 
Double-G (G²)
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   Conclusion

——————————————————————————–

Again, Christ died for us to HAVE CHRISTIAN FREEDOM.,…… n’ Christian leaders and teachers should carefully teach about the freedom we have in matters not EXPRESSELY FORBIDDEN BY SCRIPTURE

However, that’s not to say that we should use our freedom in Christ at the cost of hurting a Christian brother/sister. We are not to consider ourselves ONLY, but we must be sensitive to others. While some actions may not be wrong, they may not be in the best interests of others.

And While Christians should not make a career of being the weaker person with oversensitive consciences, that doesn’t change the fact that nothing we do should cause another believer to stumble. We do what is best for others.

Remember, in the context of I Corinthians 8, the consciences of some newer converts were still accusing them strongly with regard to eating food without eating spiritually corrupted and guilty. They still imagined that idols were real and evil…..and some believers would be caused to fall back into old sins by getting involved with foods offered unto IDOLS (I Corinthians 8:9-11).

What was Paul’s WARNING? It was that those who cause another to stumble are doing more than simply an offense against that person; THEY ARE OFFENDING THE LORD HIMSELF (I Corinthians 8:9-11). And this is something we must greatly keep in mind when it comes to dealing with the culture of Hip Hop.

I may have the freedom as a Christian to go out and but URBAN STYLE CLOTHING that seems to be generally used by EVERYONE, whether in Hip OR not, and not representing any kind of allegiance to a particular rapper. Bu what happens when I go out and buy a GIANT T-Shirt with a rapper like BIGGIE SMALLS or “SCAREFACE”?

I may see it as no deal……but minus the fact that I KNOW these Men were BLANTALY AGAIST THE LORD, and that THAT IMAGE IS KNOWN TO PORTRAY A PATICULAR IMAGE my wearing of a clothing style with their name in front could make it seem like I’m ADVERTISING THEM and could cause a weaker believer in the Lord to stumble back into accepting them as legitimate …
.and like Paul made clear, my giving no regard to how I may be hurting / offending a weaker brother with one’s freedom will cause the offended person to condemn us (I Corinthians 10:29). Better for me to not buy the shirt than run the risk of harming another because of it.

That’s why as believers we must make sure that in using our Christian Liberty, we again make sure that the good of others is one of our PRIMARY goals.

Though we shouldn’t necessarily be OVER-SENSITIVE/doing nothing for fear that someone may be displeased , or necessarily “YES” people by going along with everything and trying to gain approval from people rather than from God, We cannot be insensitive and doing what we want, no matter who is hurt by it.
Our goal should be to live in ways that would EDIFY ONE ANOTHER (I Corinthians 10:23-24) —–not seeking our own gratification FIRST or ourselves over others—and to conduct our Christian liberty as well as the most common behaviors to the glory of God (I Corinthians 10:31). It’s all about being like Jesus (I Corinthians 11:1), and remembering that to love others believers is the STRONGEST WITNESS WE HAVE (John 13:34-35).

And, moreover, regarding Holy Hip Hop, we have to remember that there will be DIFFERENCES OF OPINION in the church (disputable matters) that we should not quarrel over issues that are a matter of opinion. Differences should not be feared or avoided, but at the same time they must be handled with love….and with the expectation that NOT EVERYONE, EVEN IN THE BEST POSSIBLE CHURCH, WILL AGREE ON THE SUBJECT.

We need to accept, listen to , and RESPECT OTHERS , especially those who may be involved in Holy Hip Hop, knowing that through the sharing of ideas we can come to a fuller understanding of what the Bible teaches. Again, DIFFERENCES OF OPINION NEED NOT CAUSE DIVISION…..AND can be a source of learning/richness in our relationships (as I’ve experienced as a Youth Worker and working with those like Johnny Bapt or the kids in the youth for Holy Hip Hop)
And above all else, we must recognize that for those involved in Holy Hip Hop but whom we don’t agree with, EACH PERSON IS ACCOUNTABLE TO CHRIST. NOT OTHERS.

While the Church must be uncompromising in it’s stand against activities that are EXPRESSLY forbidden by Scripture (adultery, homosexuality, murder, theft), it should be not create ADDITIONAL RULES AND REGULATIONS AND GIVE THEM EQUAL STANDING WITH GOD’S LAW.

Many times (as is often the case with Holy Hip Hop), Christians will base their moral judgments on opinion, personal dislikes, or cultural bias rather than on the WORD OF GOD….and at the end of the day, that is the ONLY STANDARD WE HAVE TO GO BY THAT’LL LAST.
Quote:
Romans 14

The Weak and the Strong

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother?
Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11It is written:

” ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ “[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.

14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil.
17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin. 

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15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge;
the ears of the wise seek it out.
         

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 07-27-2007    #37 
snappytype
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by RAIDERJO76 
Can hip-hop be holy?

I can see that I may be the dissenting voice on this and I’m open to other opinions, but I see that the Christian rap is proclaiming the gospel louder than many pulpits. Every misconception about Christianity is preached against. False prophets are preached against, etc. etc. etc. The Christian rap has a very clear way of brining the good news and even preaching repentance. I don’t see the problem.
         

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 07-27-2007    #38 
kkll4ever
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  Obviously you missed mine. It was much better.

you are like Jimmy, Simmy, I wanna win an Emmy(word)

You can cast you vote at the office.
         

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 07-28-2007    #39 
RAIDERJO76
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  Quote:
I’m very famlliar with Christian Rap. I use to take my kids to Chrisitan rap concert a while ago. At that time, there was Dynamic Twins, SFC, JC and the Boys, DC Talk…

At that time, from all that I could remember is they called it Christian Rap and not HipHop.
 

It doesn’t really matter; it’s pretty much the same thing.
Quote:
You and many seem to just think that HipHop is just HipHop and are often really thrown when presented with additional information. But to be truthful, I don’t think you are unaware of how worldly hiphoppers see hiphop and that they see it not as just a style, but as a religion.
 

I agree. But that is why Christian rappers such as Lecrae and Flame are using rap: because people can relate to it, and it speaks to them. People that just listen to secular hip-hop aren’t going to hear the Gospel, but it is people like that that are being reached to. The holy hip-hop movement is meant to reach people who wouldn’t hear the Gospel anywhere else.
Quote:
Kids are curious and many are buying into the lifestyle, even the religious aspect and the church instead of wanting to know and learn regarding the history, origin, purpose, just take it (hiphop), give it to the kids and then don’t understand why the statisitics regarding immorality, drugs, , pregancies, alcohol use/abuse, imodest attire, attitudes among “Christian Youth” is not different than non-Christian youth.
 

KKII4ever, Christian rap does not encourage drugs, premarital sex, or anything like that. Haven’t you ever heard the Cross Movement? They teach strictly from the Bible, nothing else.
Quote:
May Christian leaders, parents and others are asking what is causing our youth to be just like the world, just like the world, but vehemently toss out the possible that it maybe part and partial do to the Christianize version of the music the youth are listening to.
 

Again, Christain rap does not promote worldly things. Think about how many people living in the hood that wouldn’t hear the Gospel anywhere else were saved because of this ministry.
Quote:
Since you stated everyone is worthy of consideration (I truly hoped you did not mean everyone), 

Why shouldn’t everyone be worthy of consideration?
Quote:
but at least G Craig. Go and check him out. Would love to hear what you think.
 

I’ll be sure to check him out; thanks
Quote:
To me, when it comes to youth, everything is up for consideration as to what is drawing them away from Christ and if they are attending church, are they plugged in or just attending because the have to. 

There would always be youth who go to church even though they want to, regardless of whether or not hip-hop is around. I don’t really get what your point is.
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 07-28-2007    #40 
kkll4ever
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  RAIDERJO76 wrote: It doesn’t really matter; it’s pretty much the same thing.

Did you check out G Craig Lewis site? He makes a valid point. He provides sustantial evidence regarding the origin, source, deception… of hiphop as oppose to hiphop. Christianity is not just Christianity. It represent the followers of Christ.

You comments that everyone is worthy of consideration, but appear that you are tossing this out.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: I agree. But that is why Christian rappers such as Lecrae and Flame are using rap: because people can relate to it, and it speaks to them. People that just listen to secular hip-hop aren’t going to hear the Gospel, but it is people like that that are being reached to. The holy hip-hop movement is meant to reach people who wouldn’t hear the Gospel anywhere else.

The Cross Movements thuds(just a hiphop term, nothing demeaning implied) such LeCrae, Da Truth, Ambassador… are the main promoters of Christian HipHop and some of them are the ones that run with non-Christian rappers as you agreed that some does such. The point G Craig and I’m making is whether Christian hiphop in the minds of the young is any different in the way we as adult say it is different. I would say among the young, there is no difference.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: KKII4ever, Christian rap does not encourage drugs, premarital sex, or anything like that. Haven’t you ever heard the Cross Movement? They teach strictly from the Bible, nothing else.

Agreed. It does not, but hiphop does. I’m sure you would agree, if one is going to be hiphop, be hiphop, you got to look and act hiphop.

1Cr 15:33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: Again, Christain rap does not promote worldly things. Think about how many people living in the hood that wouldn’t hear the Gospel anywhere else were saved because of this ministry.

One of the greatest struggles I have with people when presenting something for their consideration relating specifically to youth is that “young don’t think like adult and don’t have the discernment of adults.”

This is so strange, adults call them kids, but forget that are called to train the kids to maturity by teaching them the word of God and the ways of God.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: There would always be youth who go to church even though they want to, regardless of whether or not hip-hop is around. I don’t really get what your point is.

My points is simple, we as those called by God should be doing everything possible to save the children and not just tossing them a Christian variety of something that is otherwise worldly and hope they get it. This is not wise to leave kids to themselves.
 07-28-2007    #41 
ric_b
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  I guess so, but it doesn’t mean I have to like it.

Every argument against it I hear is basically the same as the arguments I heard against Christian rock 20-25 years ago.

Guilty by association!
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 07-29-2007    #42 
RAIDERJO76
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  Quote:
RAIDERJO76 wrote: It doesn’t really matter; it’s pretty much the same thing.

Did you check out G Craig Lewis site? He makes a valid point. He provides sustantial evidence regarding the origin, source, deception… of hiphop as oppose to hiphop. Christianity is not just Christianity. It represent the followers of Christ.

You comments that everyone is worthy of consideration, but appear that you are tossing this out.
 

What am I tossing out? What is this statement based on?

I’ve heard the argument so many times that hip-hop can’t be holy, because it has “bad origins.” But does the fact that worldly people used hip-hop make it so that hip-hop can’t be holy? Why can’t someone take hip-hop, get rid of all the worldly things associated with it (that means the encouragement of lust, drugs, alchohal, half-naked girls, and things of that nature), and use it to glorify God? If we get rid of all of the sinful things associated with hip-hop, and just use the musical style of hip-hop to spread the Gospel, can don’t you think hip-hop can be holy? If it is used only to praise God, and to reach to the people in the hip-hop culture? KKII4ever, it’s so important for you to understand that for the peole in the hip-hop culture, the HHH (holy hip-hop) ministry is the only way they’ll hear the Gospel. If you take out all the ungodly things associated with hip-hop, what’s so bad about using this music to glorify God?

RAIDERJO76 wrote: I agree. But that is why Christian rappers such as Lecrae and Flame are using rap: because people can relate to it, and it speaks to them. People that just listen to secular hip-hop aren’t going to hear the Gospel, but it is people like that that are being reached to. The holy hip-hop movement is meant to reach people who wouldn’t hear the Gospel anywhere else.
Quote:
The Cross Movements thuds(just a hiphop term, nothing demeaning implied) such LeCrae, Da Truth, Ambassador… are the main promoters of Christian HipHop and some of them are the ones that run with non-Christian rappers as you agreed that some does such. The point G Craig and I’m making is whether Christian hiphop in the minds of the young is any different in the way we as adult say it is different. I would say among the young, there is no difference. 

Really? How would you know this? Just so you know, I would be considered part of the “youth.” I’m in high school, and I’m telling you that a differance can be seen in secular and Christian hip-hop. I’ve seen this movement impact so many people, including myself.

And I have a question. The people in the hip-hop culture are often the ones that have premarital sex, use drugs, alchohal, get shot, etc etc, correct? Why do you think this is? Wouldn’t you agree it has a lot to do with what’s promoted in the music they listen to? If this is true, what makes you think the same wouldn’t be true if the content of the music was changed? The encouragement of lust and premarital sex in secular hip-hop influences it’s listeners to have premarital sex, correct? Well, if purity was promoted rather than lust, wouldn’t the listeners be influenced into remaining pure?

And what exactly do you mean when you say that Cross Movement artists associate with non-Christain hip-hoppers? Do you mean that they do songs with them, or hang out with them, or something else? Sorry, but I’m just not really sure what was meant. Thanks.
Quote:
RAIDERJO76 wrote: KKII4ever, Christian rap does not encourage drugs, premarital sex, or anything like that. Haven’t you ever heard the Cross Movement? They teach strictly from the Bible, nothing else.

Agreed. It does not, but hiphop does. I’m sure you would agree, if one is going to be hiphop, be hiphop, you got to look and act hiphop.
 

But the whole point is to change the way people in the hip-hop culture act.

And I wouldn’t say that hip-hop promotes ungodliness; it’s the content of (most) hip-hop. I would agree that secular hip-hop (which, I have to sadly admit, is most hip-hop) does promote these things, but it is because of the content. The style of music has nothing to do with it. If the same content was more frequently used in rock, you would get the same results as most of today’s hip-hop culture. But it wouldn’t make rock any more ungodly; it would make the content being used in rock ungodly. In the same way, it is not the musical style of hip-hop that is ungodly, but the content of most hip-hop.
Quote:
 

Quote:
1Cr 15:33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
But first you have to show what makes hip-hop evil. By saying hip-hop can’t be holy because of what this verse says, you are making the assumption that hip-hop is evil, when in reality it is the content of secular hip-hop that is evil.
Quote:
RAIDERJO76 wrote: Again, Christain rap does not promote worldly things. Think about how many people living in the hood that wouldn’t hear the Gospel anywhere else were saved because of this ministry.

One of the greatest struggles I have with people when presenting something for their consideration relating specifically to youth is that “young don’t think like adult and don’t have the discernment of adults.”
 

Yes, kids’ brains aren’t as developed as adults. But trust me, they can tell the difference between, “do drugs,” and, “don’t do drugs.”
Quote:
This is so strange, adults call them kids, but forget that are called to train the kids to maturity by teaching them the word of God and the ways of God.
 

And who says we can’t do this through hip-hop?
Quote:
RAIDERJO76 wrote: 

Quote:
There would always be youth who go to church even though they want to, regardless of whether or not hip-hop is around. I don’t really get what your point is.

My points is simple, we as those called by God should be doing everything possible to save the children and not just tossing them a Christian variety of something that is otherwise worldly and hope they get it. This is not wise to leave kids to themselves. 

KKII4ever, you are making the assumption that hip-hop is worldly. Again, it’s not hip-hop that’s worldy, but what is often taught through it.
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 07-29-2007    #43 
Double-G (G²)
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   Question for the Discussion…

——————————————————————————–

Quote:
RAIDERJO76: I’ve heard the argument so many times that hip-hop can’t be holy, because it has “bad origins.” But does the fact that worldly people used hip-hop make it so that hip-hop can’t be holy? Why can’t someone take hip-hop, get rid of all the worldly things associated with it (that means the encouragement of lust, drugs, alchohal, half-naked girls, and things of that nature), and use it to glorify God? If we get rid of all of the sinful things associated with hip-hop, and just use the musical style of hip-hop to spread the Gospel, can don’t you think hip-hop can be holy? If it is used only to praise God, and to reach to the people in the hip-hop culture? KKII4ever, it’s so important for you to understand that for the peole in the hip-hop culture, the HHH (holy hip-hop) ministry is the only way they’ll hear the Gospel. If you take out all the ungodly things associated with hip-hop, what’s so bad about using this music to glorify God? 

The Word of God makes clear that any practice/belief CONTRARY to the Lord is to be rejected and that it should not be allowed if it exalts the flesh (Galatians 5:16-25, Ephesians 5:1-17)….and thus, ANY music with foul content or things used for wrong purposes should be rejected rather than accepted
However, does anyone have any thoughts as to what to make of the forms/styles of expression used by HIP HOP, as well as the genere of music and clothing styles that are often used as vehicles to promote it (not necesarily meaning the ones which are immodest, but the ones which are actually casual, stylish/fashionable and actually decent attire)?

Moreover, Does anyone think that there may be a difference between Hip Hop (what the culture stands for/originated in—–as in it’s religious roots) and URBAN Street CULTURE (i.e. the things that have been incorporated into it that were in existence before the culture itself ever formed/are not inherently evil in themselves)

Specifically, the things I’m referencing ate things such as the following:
Graffiti,

Breakdancing,
Beatboxing,,
“popping,” “locking,” “hitting,” “ticking,” “boogaloo,” and other funk styles that evolved independently during the late 1960s in California”
DJing,
scratching,

Rapping,

beats (music),

slang,
street knowledge,
Jazz rap,
Neo soul,
contemporary R&B,
Urban Street Wear (i.e. baggy or sagging jeans, “kicks”, sports shoes, Fitted Caps, elaborately decorated zip-up hoodies, Large T-Shirts, etc)
Sportswear (i.e. labels like Tommy Hilfiger, FUBU, Ecko Unlimited, Mecca USA, Lugz, Walker Wear, Boss JeansIG Design, and Enyce, etc)
By no means is this list ALL inclusive, but I was wondering whether any of these things are things that can be kept/practiced WITHOUT ASSOCIATION to the HIP HOP Culture or if these things are by nature bad like the many things which take place within the culture itself.

For many of these things were already being practiced before the CULTURE of Hip Hop existed…..or were incorporated into the culture after they were developed and were so long used by Hip Hop that they are now seen as ORIGINATING within Hip Hop……and though they’re being used to represent the culture itself, they are often used by many who do not support the Culture of Hip Hop itself and the negative way of life it often promotes (i.e. the mentality of do as you want to do” n’ not respecting authority, the “bling-bling” lifestyle in rap music, focusing on symbols of wealth and status like money, jewelry, cars, and clothing” , Gansta lifestyles, sexual immorality, unwillingness to learn how to conduct oneself appropiately when in differing environments, such as dressing up nice/speaking properly when attending work/seeking a job, or not living for the streets/seeking higher education, etc)
Thoughts???
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15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge;
the ears of the wise seek it out.

——————————————————————————–
Last edited by Double-G (G²) : 07-29-2007 at 02:54 AM. 
         

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 07-29-2007    #44 
Osita
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  It is encouraging>> with the WoG…

——————————————————————————–

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAIDERJO76 
Can hip-hop be holy?

Hey,,

I am listening to rap now..cooooool…>>

lol…
Believe me.. all the Words are to be to glorify Him>>
It is the written WoG, that is being brought across>>
with a twist of rap~~~~~~~~
yes~~~~~

**And I witnessed alot of good RAP,.(written with WoG)….,because of being guided by Christ Jesus.~~ remember,
Philippians 4:13.
>>>>>>>ALL things are possible through Christ Jesus>>>>>>>>>>>
AMEN~~

Peace,
Osita~
“To Him be all the GLory”
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 07-29-2007    #45 
Osita
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  Poetry>

——————————————————————————–

Hey,,
Also..

rap has its’ way with poetry..written with the WoG.
REALLY cool..
Gets your Praise on~~~~~~~~~~~~yeah
In the name of Jesus!
He is worthy!!!!!

peace,
Osita~
Get dowwwwwwwwn~~>>>IF IT IS NOT ABOUT GOD…YOU NEED TO LET IT GO~~~
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 07-29-2007    #46 
kkll4ever
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  RAIDERJO76 wrote: I’ve heard the argument so many times that hip-hop can’t be holy, because it has “bad origins.”

Since you have heard this, should there be this tossing out and not consider as important.

Rom 11:16For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.

What do you this of the above verse? Origins are very important.

Do you recall that God would have the Israelites kill certain nations and every, man, child, cattle, burn down the city and leave it in ruins.

Have you ever wondered why? Hopefully you will not go into defense mode, throw your hands up and say, what does this have to do with hiphop? As the verse identified, if the root is holy, then the branches will be as well and the converse would be as well.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: Why can’t someone take hip-hop, get rid of all the worldly things associated with it (that means the encouragement of lust, drugs, alchohal, half-naked girls, and things of that nature), and use it to glorify God?

Based on the scripture provided, you cannot retain the name, form and practive of something without retaining the spirit of something, it just bleed into the Christianized version.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: If we get rid of all of the sinful things associated with hip-hop, and just use the musical style of hip-hop to spread the Gospel, can don’t you think hip-hop can be holy?

I use to think this was possible. That’s why I mentioned my expereince with the youth. They were not doing such.

Let’s do this and I think this my assist better.

Why do you think, statistically speaking, that the Christian youth are no better and sometimes worse than Christian youth in terms of teen pregnancy, abortions, drugs, alcohol, smoking, disrespectful and disobedient to parents and adults?

What are the causes of these thing? Hiphop glorifies all of these anti-Christian things. I would not say that music is the single cause, but is music/hiphop contributing?
         

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 07-29-2007    #47 
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  Quote:
RAIDERJO76 wrote: I’ve heard the argument so many times that hip-hop can’t be holy, because it has “bad origins.”

Since you have heard this, should there be this tossing out and not consider as important.
 

That’s not at all what I’m saying; I just meant it’s frustrating because I hear that point so often, and it couldn’t be more wrong.
Quote:
 

Quote:
Rom 11:16For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.

What do you this of the above verse? Origins are very important.
KK114ever, your entire arguement (and most of your other ones) are circular logic, because they assume that hip-hop is evil. But what I’m trying to tell you is that hip-hop is not evil; and neither is it holy. It is true that people can use it for their worldly desires (i.e. secular hip-hop), but people can also use it for godly reasons (i.e. holy hip-hop). I can’t emphasize enough that what makes secular hip-hop evil is the content. That is what makes secular hip-hop evil. It’s not the style of music being used- it’s the content. And I think it’s very unfair of you to judge hip-hop as a whole just because some (and, I’ll admit, most) hip-hoppers use it for the wrong purpose and encourage the wrong thing.
Quote:
Do you recall that God would have the Israelites kill certain nations and every, man, child, cattle, burn down the city and leave it in ruins.

Have you ever wondered why? Hopefully you will not go into defense mode, throw your hands up and say, what does this have to do with hiphop? As the verse identified, if the root is holy, then the branches will be as well and the converse would be as well.
 

Again, I don’t believe that hip-hop is holy or evil. I think it is the purpose that it is used for that matters. This arguement, again, rests on the assumption that hip-hop itself is evil.
Quote:
RAIDERJO76 wrote: Why can’t someone take hip-hop, get rid of all the worldly things associated with it (that means the encouragement of lust, drugs, alchohal, half-naked girls, and things of that nature), and use it to glorify God?

Based on the scripture provided, you cannot retain the name, form and practive of something without retaining the spirit of something, it just bleed into the Christianized version.
 

What? Are you saying that the encouragement of drugs, alchohal, and lust are encouraged in holy hip-hop?

And if it did, then I wouldn’t call that music holy hip-hop because it obviously isn’t holy if it encourages such things. But what I’m saying is that if someone gets rid of all the worldly things associated with hip-hop, what is so bad about using it to glorify God?
Quote:
RAIDERJO76 wrote: If we get rid of all of the sinful things associated with hip-hop, and just use the musical style of hip-hop to spread the Gospel, can don’t you think hip-hop can be holy?

I use to think this was possible. That’s why I mentioned my expereince with the youth. They were not doing such.
 

That’s to bad. But that does not mean that it’s hip-hop’s fault. Don’t you think the same arguement could be used against Christian rock, or any other genre of music, for that matter? It doesn’t matter what type of music you use, there will always be people not being changed by it. It’s not like this is hip-hop’s fault; you can’t expect everyone to be influenced by the lyrics. However, there are some people that are influenced by holy hip-hop. Whether you deny it or not doesn’t matter; I’ve seen it. Don’t you think it’d be worth it, even if only one soul was saved?
Quote:
Let’s do this and I think this my assist better.
 

Sorry; I’m not sure what is meant by this.
Quote:
Why do you think, statistically speaking, that the Christian youth are no better and sometimes worse than Christian youth in terms of teen pregnancy, abortions, drugs, alcohol, smoking, disrespectful and disobedient to parents and adults?
 

I don’t know; maybe some youth ministries shouldn’t be as leniant as they are. But this is no reason to blame hip-hop! I honestly don’t know how you get that.

In my church, most of the youth are into rock, and most of the youth act very worldly. Should rock be blamed for this?
Quote:
What are the causes of these thing? Hiphop glorifies all of these anti-Christian things. 

No, secular hip-hop does. Once again, it’s not the syle of music that effects the listeners, but the content.
Quote:
I would not say that music is the single cause, but is music/hiphop contributing? 

I would say secular music does, yes. But how would songs whose lyrics discourage drugs, alchohal, violance, and premarital sex encourage people to do these things? I honestly don’t mean to be rude, KKII4ever, but this doesn’t make any sense.
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 07-29-2007    #48 
kkll4ever
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  RAIDERJO76 wrote: That’s not at all what I’m saying; I just meant it’s frustrating because I hear that point so often, and it couldn’t be more wrong.

This is why I keep saying you are tossing things out. You in one voice say everything is considerable and then in the next comment, openly rejecting it. Unless you can say that you have realy heard out the argument, would this be a form of prejudice instigated by personal preference?

RAIDERJO76 wrote: What? Are you saying that the encouragement of drugs, alchohal, and lust are encouraged in holy hip-hop?

That is exactly what I’m saying. I can say this because you know regardless of the purety of the lyrics, because of the association with HipHop. Here’s a test. If it was called just Christian Rap, would you be just a interested then it being called Christian HipHop?

Another point that you are missing is that how you think of Christian HipHop, does this necessarily mean the youth think about it that way. From my experience, they are just as lustful, booty shakin, hand waving.

At a youth conference a little while ago, a Christian hiphopper came and performed. Some of the girlfriends, grabbed and pulled down the man’s pants. Remind you, this is at a youth conference.

For the umptine time, are you just going to say Christian HipHop is not having any negative impact on the youth?
And if it did, then I wouldn’t call that music holy hip-hop because it obviously isn’t holy if it encourages such things. But what I’m saying is that if someone gets rid of all the worldly things associated with hip-hop, what is so bad about using it to glorify God?
RAIDERJO76 wrote: That’s to bad. But that does not mean that it’s hip-hop’s fault.

You see, you will defend HipHop regardless of the results in so many lives. There is nothing wrong with it. Origins make a big difference. I personally think this is why KRS-ONE and many like him don’t mind if we call it Christian HipHop, because they know there is a spirit behind the idea. But for some reason, all the Cross Movement fellas act as if they are fighting the war and winning the youth over to Christ. The impact is not nearly as effective as we think. Look at the youth that go to your church that listen to Christian HipHop and tell they are coming by packs and on fire for Christ. What I see is girls dressing in just as tight clothes, guy wear non-Chrisitian hiphopper clothes.

So, here is the question. Is this the result of this so-call Christianize version of something that was created by the world, of the world and in the world. And when is the Christian church going to stop copying the world? It use to be the world got it’s music from the church, but not the church gets it music from the world. You can take the language out of the music, but the spirit of the music is still influencing the young and many adults as well.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: It’s not like this is hip-hop’s fault; you can’t expect everyone to be influenced by the lyrics.

And so wouldn’t it be wise to see if it the spirit of the music, even though is suppose to be Christian, is affecting people wrongly, unexpectantly?

RAIDERJO76 wrote: In my church, most of the youth are into rock, and most of the youth act very worldly. Should rock be blamed for this?

This is exactly what I’m talking about. And if you take a survey of most youth program who have adopted a Christian version of a previously worldly form, the youth are a messed up bunch of kids. I couldn’t figure it out when I was a youth Pastor. Then it hit me right in the head, “you have changes the words, by you cannot change the spirit.” Have you ever heard the scripture, “the letter killeth, but the spirit maketh.”

When are as one stated, “spiritual beings having a numan experience.” People don’t talk much about the spirit, character of a thing anymore. All the primarily talk about is the content. But you have to admit, that even the word I’m using here conveys a spirit. You can know by the way you feel when reading my comments. Do you shake your head no, no, he just don’t get it.

Let me ask. How do people become the way they are? By the things that influence them, right? Whether the influence is TV, Movies, Clothes, Friends, Church, Music, Parents, Neighborhood…, everybody is influence in accordance to the information they let in their minds.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: I would say secular music does, yes. But how would songs whose lyrics discourage drugs, alchohal, violance, and premarital sex encourage people to do these things? I honestly don’t mean to be rude, KKII4ever, but this doesn’t make any sense.

Because what the Christian kids tell you when they are asked what do you like about 50 cents. “I like the beat, I really don’t listen to the lyrics.”

Does this quote sound familiar? I think you heard it quite a few times. I know I have.
         

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 07-30-2007    #49 
kkll4ever
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  Hey, question. Do you think youth listening to this, It would cause them to be more Christlike or less Christlike?

And could you provide why for either answer?
         

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 07-31-2007    #50 
RAIDERJO76
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  Quote:
RAIDERJO76 wrote: That’s not at all what I’m saying; I just meant it’s frustrating because I hear that point so often, and it couldn’t be more wrong.

This is why I keep saying you are tossing things out. You in one voice say everything is considerable and then in the next comment, openly rejecting it. Unless you can say that you have realy heard out the argument, would this be a form of prejudice instigated by personal preference?
 

Yes. However, I can honestly say that I have heard out the objection, and considered it; and I consider it to be very flawed.

If you are going to tell me that I’m tossing things out, I would like to ask you to do the same. It seems I have to repeat all of my arguements, as if you aren’t even reading my responses…
Quote:
That is exactly what I’m saying. I can say this because you know regardless of the purety of the lyrics, because of the association with HipHop. 

No. It is NOT hip-hop that encourages lust, drugs, etc. It is SECULAR hip-hop. You are making a big mistake when you judge ALL of hip-hop just because of what secular hip-hop encourages.

How does Christian rap/hip-hop influence people into doing drugs, if it discourges it in the message? Just because of the musical style that is being used?
Quote:
Here’s a test. If it was called just Christian Rap, would you be just a interested then it being called Christian HipHop?
 

Sorry, but I can’t understand what you’re saying; the way you worded it was kind of weird… Are you asking me if I would be just as interested if it was called, “Christian rap,” and not, “Christian hip-hop”?
Quote:
Another point that you are missing is that how you think of Christian HipHop, does this necessarily mean the youth think about it that way. 

First of all, who are you to say that? How do you know what’s going through every kid’s brain? And by the way, as I stated earlier, I am considered part of the, “youth.” I am a highschooler; I know how kids think.

Also, it’s unfair for you to say that hip-hop with holy lyrics doesn’t make a difference to any of the youth based just on what you’ve seen.
Quote:
From my experience, they are just as lustful, booty shakin, hand waving.
 

But what I’m saying is if we TAKE ALL OF THAT OUT. It’s like you’re refusing to consider the idea of hip-hop without these things. I’m talking about hip-hop with NO booty shakin.

And if the hip-hop that you’ve seen is just as lustful, etc, maybe it’s not Christian rap, as it claims to be.

And again, it’s not fair for you to say hip-hop cannot be holy just because SOME “Christian” rappers were doing these things. You are allowing your prejudice towards hip-hop to get in the way.
Quote:
At a youth conference a little while ago, a Christian hiphopper came and performed. Some of the girlfriends, grabbed and pulled down the man’s pants. Remind you, this is at a youth conference.
 

Well, maybe it wasn’t genuinely Christian. Again, KKII4ever, it’s so unfair for you to say hip-hop can’t be holy just because of this. I’m saying that if we have hip-hop without these things, can it be holy?
Quote:
For the umptine time, are you just going to say Christian HipHop is not having any negative impact on the youth?
 

What’s an, “umptine”?
Quote:
RAIDERJO76 wrote: That’s to bad. But that does not mean that it’s hip-hop’s fault.

You see, you will defend HipHop regardless of the results in so many lives. 

I can say the same of you. What about all the people that have been reached by holy hip-hop? What about all the people that wouldn’t be saved if it weren’t for this?
Quote:
There is nothing wrong with it. Origins make a big difference. I personally think this is why KRS-ONE and many like him don’t mind if we call it Christian HipHop, because they know there is a spirit behind the idea. But for some reason, all the Cross Movement fellas act as if they are fighting the war and winning the youth over to Christ. The impact is not nearly as effective as we think. 

I’d beg to differ.
Quote:
Look at the youth that go to your church that listen to Christian HipHop and tell they are coming by packs and on fire for Christ. 

Sorry, but can you please rephrase that? I don’t understand what you’re saying.
Quote:
What I see is girls dressing in just as tight clothes, 

KKII4ever, I can’t stand repeating myself. If you don’t mind, I’m going to repeat what I said in my last post:

I wouldn’t call that music holy hip-hop because it obviously isn’t holy if it encourages such things. But what I’m saying is that if someone gets rid of all the worldly things associated with hip-hop, what is so bad about using it to glorify God?

Please think about that. Please consider what I just said, because it answers almost all of your arguements.
Quote:
guy wear non-Chrisitian hiphopper clothes.
 

Where does the Bible say hip-hopper clothes are not non-Christian? Where are you getting this standard from?
Quote:
So, here is the question. Is this the result of this so-call Christianize version of something that was created by the world, of the world and in the world. And when is the Christian church going to stop copying the world? It use to be the world got it’s music from the church, but not the church gets it music from the world. You can take the language out of the music, but the spirit of the music is still influencing the young and many adults as well.
 

Based on what is your assumption that the spirit of hip-hop is evil? It is a musical style.
Quote:
And so wouldn’t it be wise to see if it the spirit of the music, even though is suppose to be Christian, is affecting people wrongly, unexpectantly?
 

Yes, I agree, it would be.
Quote:
This is exactly what I’m talking about. And if you take a survey of most youth program who have adopted a Christian version of a previously worldly form, the youth are a messed up bunch of kids. I couldn’t figure it out when I was a youth Pastor. Then it hit me right in the head, “you have changes the words, by you cannot change the spirit.” Have you ever heard the scripture, “the letter killeth, but the spirit maketh.”

When are as one stated, “spiritual beings having a numan experience.” People don’t talk much about the spirit, character of a thing anymore. All the primarily talk about is the content. But you have to admit, that even the word I’m using here conveys a spirit. You can know by the way you feel when reading my comments. Do you shake your head no, no, he just don’t get it.

Let me ask. How do people become the way they are? By the things that influence them, right? Whether the influence is TV, Movies, Clothes, Friends, Church, Music, Parents, Neighborhood…, everybody is influence in accordance to the information they let in their minds.
 

Exactly! And what if the information let in their minds through music encouraged them to live godly lives?
Quote:
Because what the Christian kids tell you when they are asked what do you like about 50 cents. “I like the beat, I really don’t listen to the lyrics.”

Does this quote sound familiar? I think you heard it quite a few times. I know I have. 

Are you proposing that it is the beat, not the lyrics, that encourage secular hip-hop listeners to act worldly? Is that what you’re saying? But wouldn’t you agree that the lyrics have an ungodly influence on secular hip-hop’s listeners? Or is it just the beat that inspires them to kill, do drugs, drink alchohal, lust, etc?

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 07-31-2007    #51 
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  RAIDERJO76 wrote: Yes. However, I can honestly say that I have heard out the objection, and considered it; and I consider it to be very flawed.

By flawed are you saying illogical? Does it have credence? If we are going to change the youth, it must have credence.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: If you are going to tell me that I’m tossing things out, I would like to ask you to do the same. It seems I have to repeat all of my arguements, as if you aren’t even reading my responses…

I’ll could probably in way give greater evidence that your position is accurate. Why, because I use to use the same argument. But when we faced as a youth Pastor with the question, “then why are youth still as immoral, disrespectful, unthankful, unruly as they were before you put Christian HipHop is as one of tools for ministering to the youth?”

RAIDERJO76 wrote: No. It is NOT hip-hop that encourages lust, drugs, etc. It is SECULAR hip-hop. You are making a big mistake when you judge ALL of hip-hop just because of what secular hip-hop encourages.

I didn’t disagree with what it encourages. I was saying that the music will not stop them, but could in many cases encourage to act immoral. I think where the disconnect is that when I say music, I mean the music, beat without the lyric. I know rap artist who take and remix secular hiphop. What’s funny is when the music starts, eventhough the youth know it’s a remix, they begin to throw down the original lyric and booty shake as if there was Christian message at all.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: How does Christian rap/hip-hop influence people into doing drugs, if it discourges it in the message? Just because of the musical style that is being used?

Because kids don’t listen to the music, they listen to the beats. They dance and get freaky to the beat without the lyrics.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: Sorry, but I can’t understand what you’re saying; the way you worded it was kind of weird… Are you asking me if I would be just as interested if it was called, “Christian rap,” and not, “Christian hip-hop”?

Yes sir. That is the question. Would you be just as interested if it was called, “Christian rap,” and not, “Christian hip-hop”?
RAIDERJO76 wrote: First of all, who are you to say that? How do you know what’s going through every kid’s brain?

That’s the point I’ve been trying to make, but doing obviously an awful job of. I apologize for any confusion.

I don’t know exactly what is going on the mind of kids, but you and I both have some really good suspicions. How can I say this? Because I was once a kid and I can probably tell by the clothes you wear that you are hiphop.

But I will agree in part that we don’t know what kids are thinking. But we can tell what they have been thinking about. We can tell what they have been thinking about by the way the act. Their actions tells us what they have been entertaining or how they are processing the things they entertain.

You commented that the youth at you church are not doing well when it comes to living for Christ. It was through your observations, seeing what they are doing, that you make the comment. Is this not correct? That is, by watching the youth, you know what they are thinking about.

So you and I can know if the Christian music they are listening to is having a Christlike impact by the way they are acting.

Trying to figure out what makes a person tick is a very complex exercise. And believe me I’m not trying to do that here. What I am saying is, since music is a huge part of the way youth cope with life at their age and an artistic form of expressing themselves, if we are going to delivered them out of the hands of Satan, we cannot say that Christian HipHop is not an integral part of the problem.

Remember Satan used God’s word in the temptation of Jesus. So Satan will quote scripture in a twisted manner if it accomplishes his objective to get us and the youth to live for themselves and not God only.

So you can do as you wish and say all day, “It’s not Christian HipHop”, but because you and I both cannot say how the youth are processing Christian HipHop, then we are wise to consider that they are getting the message but the melody/the beat.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: And by the way, as I stated earlier, I am considered part of the, “youth.” I am a highschooler; I know how kids think.

Then you know that many of them are not processing things like you are presenting here.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: But what I’m saying is if we TAKE ALL OF THAT OUT. It’s like you’re refusing to consider the idea of hip-hop without these things. I’m talking about hip-hop with NO booty shakin.

I’ve gone to some Chrisitian HipHop concerts recently. And as I stated, the guys and the girls were dancing like they were in the house party. The only reason the fellas was not up on the girls and vice-versa was not because of the Christian lyrics, it was because the youth workers got involved. So here we are, in a Church with Christian hiphop and the way the youth were acting was no different than if they were at a party.

I’m telling you, HipHop origin is of Satan. And as I provided scripture if the root is unholy, so are the branches. You cannot escape this.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: And if the hip-hop that you’ve seen is just as lustful, etc, maybe it’s not Christian rap, as it claims to be.

You are correct, you are repeating yourself and I’m repeating myself. But I’m trying to show that the youth are not being a positively impacted for Christ as so many who support Christian HipHop would believe.

If I was not distinct before, here I go. Calling it Christian HipHop associates it with HipHop origins and the origins are Satanic. You can change the language, but cannot change the origin. This I believe is why so many youth are not moved by Christian HipHop. Let me ask, Because Satan quoted from Gods’ word, does that mean that now Satan is one of God’s preachers. Of course not, why, because Satan’s orgin, nature is evil. If you read God’s word and I assuming you take God’s word as the final authority, if you read God’s word, you will see God would deal with individuals and things according to their nature. The nature of HipHop is not of God. To just try and plug God into it, will not change it’s nature.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: Well, maybe it wasn’t genuinely Christian. Again, KKII4ever, it’s so unfair for you to say hip-hop can’t be holy just because of this. I’m saying that if we have hip-hop without these things, can it be holy?

Why is it everytime I provide you examples of where Christian HipHop is not having as much a positive impact, you come back and say that I’m saying Christian HipHop is having no positive impact.

Christian HipHop has trapped itself by it’s name and what the name is associated with. For some reason it is not acceptable for it to called Christian Rap. Why is this?

Even G Craig agree calling it Christian Rap is acceptable, but calling it HipHop is as if Satan has decided to quote the word of God. Labels and names have spiritual connections. The leaders of hiphop know this. Why do we as Christians?

So to save yourself time. Just answer this question. Why is it for some reason it is not acceptable for it to called Christian Rap? Why must it be called hiphop? What does calling it hiphop mean?
         

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 07-31-2007    #52 
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  RAIDERJO76 wrote: Are you proposing that it is the beat, not the lyrics, that encourage secular hip-hop listeners to act worldly? Is that what you’re saying? But wouldn’t you agree that the lyrics have an ungodly influence on secular hip-hop’s listeners? Or is it just the beat that inspires them to kill, do drugs, drink alchohal, lust, etc?

Hey. Let me say first. You articulate your position quite well. I compliment you on your presentation.

Now back to my final point in the part of our discussion. Whether is secular or non-secular music, one argument that is often used by youth is “I’m only listening to the beats.”

But you point is well stated when saying “but in Christian HipHop all the secular non-Christian lyric have been removed.” But by virtue of calling it hiphop you connect it to that which has been contaminated by the world. Thus despite every effort to purge the lyrics, the musical beat traps the youth into doing/acting out the same moves as if they were listening to secular hiphop.

This is concern I have in many area of the Church. Taking that which was made by the world and for the world and trying to purge it of its worldliness to try and make a Christian version. The church should not be copying the world in any respect.
         

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 07-31-2007    #53 
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  Clip of G Criag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRc6YDhNKXA
         

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 07-31-2007    #54 
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  Quote:
RAIDERJO76 wrote: Yes. However, I can honestly say that I have heard out the objection, and considered it; and I consider it to be very flawed.

By flawed are you saying illogical? Does it have credence? If we are going to change the youth, it must have credence. 

Yes, by flawed I mean illogical.
Quote:
RAIDERJO76 wrote: If you are going to tell me that I’m tossing things out, I would like to ask you to do the same. It seems I have to repeat all of my arguements, as if you aren’t even reading my responses…

I’ll could probably in way give greater evidence that your position is accurate. Why, because I use to use the same argument. But when we faced as a youth Pastor with the question, “then why are youth still as immoral, disrespectful, unthankful, unruly as they were before you put Christian HipHop is as one of tools for ministering to the youth?”
 

Who knows why, but that does not mean that hip-hop is to blame.

Holy hip-hop may not affect the kids you’ve seen, but you can’t say hip-hop can’t be holy because of that. You can’t speak for ALL of the youth just based on the youth you’ve seen. And it’s important to realize that for the most part, holy hip-hop is meant to reach people living in the hood, doing drugs, etc. That’s who it’s directed to; in fact, it really isn’t even directed toward kids.
Quote:
RAIDERJO76 wrote: No. It is NOT hip-hop that encourages lust, drugs, etc. It is SECULAR hip-hop. You are making a big mistake when you judge ALL of hip-hop just because of what secular hip-hop encourages.

I didn’t disagree with what it encourages. I was saying that the music will not stop them, but could in many cases encourage to act immoral. I think where the disconnect is that when I say music, I mean the music, beat without the lyric. I know rap artist who take and remix secular hiphop. What’s funny is when the music starts, eventhough the youth know it’s a remix, they begin to throw down the original lyric and booty shake as if there was Christian message at all.
 

That’s ridiculous; you really think that the beat of hip-hop is what causes the listeners of secular hip-hop to have sex, use violance, drink, and do drugs? Do you honestly think that it’s the beat that encourages that?
Quote:
RAIDERJO76 wrote: How does Christian rap/hip-hop influence people into doing drugs, if it discourges it in the message? Just because of the musical style that is being used?

Because kids don’t listen to the music, they listen to the beats. They dance and get freaky to the beat without the lyrics.
 

Please refer to what I said above.
Quote:
RAIDERJO76 wrote: Sorry, but I can’t understand what you’re saying; the way you worded it was kind of weird… Are you asking me if I would be just as interested if it was called, “Christian rap,” and not, “Christian hip-hop”?

Yes sir. That is the question. Would you be just as interested if it was called, “Christian rap,” and not, “Christian hip-hop”?
 

Yes; they’re pretty much the same thing… I don’t really get what your point is…
Quote:
But I will agree in part that we don’t know what kids are thinking. But we can tell what they have been thinking about. We can tell what they have been thinking about by the way the act. Their actions tells us what they have been entertaining or how they are processing the things they entertain.

You commented that the youth at you church are not doing well when it comes to living for Christ. It was through your observations, seeing what they are doing, that you make the comment. Is this not correct? That is, by watching the youth, you know what they are thinking about.

So you and I can know if the Christian music they are listening to is having a Christlike impact by the way they are acting.
 

And how do you know that some of the listeners of holy hip-hop don’t start acting differently? I did…
Quote:
Trying to figure out what makes a person tick is a very complex exercise. And believe me I’m not trying to do that here. What I am saying is, since music is a huge part of the way youth cope with life at their age and an artistic form of expressing themselves, if we are going to delivered them out of the hands of Satan, we cannot say that Christian HipHop is not an integral part of the problem.

Remember Satan used God’s word in the temptation of Jesus. So Satan will quote scripture in a twisted manner if it accomplishes his objective to get us and the youth to live for themselves and not God only.

So you can do as you wish and say all day, “It’s not Christian HipHop”, but because you and I both cannot say how the youth are processing Christian HipHop, then we are wise to consider that they are getting the message but the melody/the beat.
 

Again, the syle of music has nothing to do with it.

Most Christians don’t even listen to Christian rap. If you are going to say that statistically, Christians act just as bad as non-christians, I think you should blame rock, because there are tons of more Christians that listen to rock than hip-hop.
Quote:
RAIDERJO76 wrote: And by the way, as I stated earlier, I am considered part of the, “youth.” I am a highschooler; I know how kids think.

Then you know that many of them are not processing things like you are presenting here.
 

Oh my goodness I can’t believe how close minded you’re being.

Yes, a lot of people my age don’t process these things, but a lot of them do. You can’t toss out holy hip-hop because of this. What about the people it has a positive affect on? Have you heard about the girl who almost commited suicide unsaved, but decided not to because she heard a KJ52 song that changed her thinking right before she killed herself? If God didn’t use holy hip-hop to reach her, she would have commited suicide and spent eternity in hell… What about people like this? Are you really willing to toss out Christian hip-hop, just because some people remain unaffected?
Quote:
I’ve gone to some Chrisitian HipHop concerts recently. And as I stated, the guys and the girls were dancing like they were in the house party. The only reason the fellas was not up on the girls and vice-versa was not because of the Christian lyrics, it was because the youth workers got involved. So here we are, in a Church with Christian hiphop and the way the youth were acting was no different than if they were at a party. 

KKII4ever, this is another example of me repeating myself. I am saying we need to take all of that stuff out. I am NOT saying that what happened at those concerts was okay. I’m saying we need to take that out along with all of the other worldly things associated with hip-hop. Please consider what I just said. I’m talking about hip-hop WITHOUT THE BOOTY SHAKIN. I’m saying we need to take that out. I AM TALKING ABOUT HIP-HOP WITHOUT THESE THINGS.

Please know I’m not trying to be rude; I’m just trying to get my point across. Please reread my paragraph above a couple of times, until you understand it, and think about it: hip-hop WITHOUT all of the things you saw at those concerts.
Quote:
I’m telling you, HipHop origin is of Satan. And as I provided scripture if the root is unholy, so are the branches. You cannot escape this. 

Again, your entire arguement is based on assumptions… On the assumption that hip-hop is unholy, when in reality, it’s some of the people who use it that are unholy. You are looking at secular hip-hop, and saying that hip-hop altogether is bad. It’s all based on assumptions, KKII4ever.

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 08-01-2007    #55 
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  Who can say>

——————————————————————————–

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkll4ever 
Hey, question. Do you think youth listening to this, It would cause them to be more Christlike or less Christlike?

And could you provide why for either answer?

hi,

The Lord works through all things to bring all to Him.

,,nothing is to hard for God… He is God!
including music… which we are talking about.

Christlike or less Christlike…youth.

Well, kkll4ever, I seen both sides..youth became more Christlike and less Christlike..
I can not speak for any one individual… but it happens that through this type of music… youth are more Christlike.. it is in))) music is really a tool for the “good news”..
with the firm foundation of the WoG..
Blessings,
Osita
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 08-01-2007    #56 
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  RAIDERJO76 wrote: That’s ridiculous; you really think that the beat of hip-hop is what causes the listeners of secular hip-hop to have sex, use violance, drink, and do drugs? Do you honestly think that it’s the beat that encourages that?

When you dance, what do you dance to?

RAIDERJO76 wrote: Sorry, but I can’t understand what you’re saying; the way you worded it was kind of weird… Are you asking me if I would be just as interested if it was called, “Christian rap,” and not, “Christian hip-hop”?

Yes sir. That is the question. Would you be just as interested if it was called, “Christian rap,” and not, “Christian hip-hop”?

I’ve asked this same question twice. The second time, I acknowledge that you were correct in how you understood the question. The simple answer is you know you would not be as interested if it was called “Christian Rap.” Why, because as KRS-One stated, “you are hiphop”, and it’s how you express yourself.

Oh my goodness I can’t believe how close minded you’re being.

Not being close minded, but open minded to the possibility that this so-called holy hiphop is the very thing that is condemning many a youth. Again, why did you dodge the question regarding calling it Christian Rap? And why did you say people don’t really listen to Christian Rap? It’s because to call it Christian Rap is to not give it the same appeal. Names do mean something and name do have certain things attached to it. Hiphop has a spiritual connotation that did not originate from God, but from Satan and I’m certain you know this.

RAIDERJO76 wrote: Yes, a lot of people my age don’t process these things, but a lot of them do. You can’t toss out holy hip-hop because of this. What about the people it has a positive affect on? Have you heard about the girl who almost commited suicide unsaved, but decided not to because she heard a KJ52 song that changed her thinking right before she killed herself? If God didn’t use holy hip-hop to reach her, she would have commited suicide and spent eternity in hell… What about people like this? Are you really willing to toss out Christian hip-hop, just because some people remain unaffected?

I’ve heard the song you’re referring to several times. I have the CD. Played it for my kids. I respond like this. You stated “KKII4ever, this is another example of me repeating myself. I am saying we need to take all of that stuff out. I’m saying we need to take that out along with all of the other worldly things associated with hip-hop. Please consider what I just said. I’m talking about hip-hop WITHOUT THE BOOTY SHAKIN. I’m saying we need to take that out. I AM TALKING ABOUT HIP-HOP WITHOUT THESE THINGS.”

But how do you take it out? As I’ve stated repeatedly, calling it holy hiphop will not do the trick. It’s like what I said earlier, just because Satan quoted scripture, should we now accept him as a preacher of the Gospel? But this is what you are trying to do with hiphop. Trying to clean it up. But is cannot, because it is unclean at it’s root. Remember the scripture “if the root be holy, then also are the branches” and conversely if the root be unholy, then also are the branches. But chances are, you are close minded to this as you stated I am.

Just an aside for a minute. What do you think about this scripture and what do you think about scripture in general? I don’t remember you ever referring to scripture. You do understand that it is by scripture that we have salvation. I sure hope you are reading you bible daily and meditating on God’s word. And believe me I try and make this observation in every thread I participate. If I am dialoging with a Christian, I would expect the Christian would refer to the text of scripture pretty regularly. But your comments are empty of the word of God.

Lastly and this is probably my last comments with you.

I’ve attempted not to be disrespectful by referring to your comments as ridiculous. I’ve tried to even be respectful of your position and your thoughts.

I don’t mean this in mean way, but your comments have digress into that of a typical highschooler/teenager. You may have heard the saying, “teen think they know it all and you cannot reason with them.” This must be true if you call my comments ridiculous. So seeing you have all the answers for your generation, I look forward to hearing regarding the many lives you have impacted for Christ.

I’ve presented my position. You have every right to disagree and you have. Since in your mind you believe Christian HipHop can be only holy and not cause any negatives, then I see not further discussion is needed.

Praying that God will grow you into who He wants you to be as you surrender your will to His.

I yeild to you any additonal comments.
         

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 08-01-2007    #57 
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  Cool deal. I was just posing this as a thought question.
         

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 08-01-2007    #58 
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  Well, it seems like we both have very different opinions on this issue, and that neither of us will change our minds; I agree there really isn’t any need for further discussion. However I would just like to say that despite our disagreements on this issue, I still consider you my brother in Christ. As Christians, we shouldn’t let this come between us, because we are one in Christ. Thanks for having this discussion with my brother, and God bless.
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 08-01-2007    #59 
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  Correction. The website is templeofhiphop.org.

On this site, you see 365 verses(this is actually what the site calls them) 365 freestyles.

On this site, you see the declaration of peace, consisting of 18 principles. The first 3 are below.

First Principle

Hiphop (Hip´Hop) is a term that describes our independent collective consciousness. Ever growing, it is commonly expressed through such elements as Breakin, Emceein, Graffiti Art, Deejayin, Beatboxin, Street Fashion, Street Language, Street Knowledge and Street Entrepreneurialism. Wherever and whenever these and future elements and expressions of Hiphop Kulture manifest; this Hiphop Declaration of Peace shall advise the use and interpretation of such elements, expressions and lifestyle.
Second Principle

Hiphop Kulture respects the dignity and sanctity of life without discrimination or prejudice. Hiphoppas shall thoroughly consider the protection and the development of life, over and before the individual decision to destroy or seek to alter its natural development.

Third Principle

Hiphop Kulture respects the Laws and agreements of its culture, its country, its institutions and whomever it does business with. Hiphop does not irresponsibly break Laws and commitments.

http://templeofhiphop.org
This is a verse from scripture:
Rom 11:16For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.

What if the word holy was changed to unholy?
         

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 08-14-2007    #60 
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  All of my arguements and examples are entirely what you are doing, though. You say that Christian Hip-Hop Artists dress in fashion A, therefore they are identifying with a sinful lifestyle, because those who blatantly identify with said sinful lifestyle dress in fashion A.

It’s a totally illogical look at things.

Clothing as an expression is present, yes. But also, and undeniably, present is the desire to not stick out. Sometimes people go purposely against that desire to acheive (oddly) a similar effect to the former. It’s an odd thing that I remember quite well from High School. The student that dresses with spiked hair and chains does so for the exact same reason that the other student dresses in regular T-shirts and jeans: to fit in with a people. They then both declare that they don’t want to be labelled, which I always found hilarious. Part of becoming an individual is trying to find your niche, then realizing that you don’t need one at all. So long as the clothing is modest, let the kids dress the way they want. It’s the only way they will learn what is really going on. If you try to enforce a particular style, they will likely just rebell against it for no particular reason they can think of (there is a perfectly good reason, they just likely won’t be aware of it).

finally, I never said that they shouldn’t dress modestly, or listen to bragging loud-mouthes. I said they should be able to chose thier own style. You can very definitely dress any style and yet maintain modesty. I’ve even seen kids dress modestly wearing “goth” style clothes. They weren’t dressing expensively, nor were they dressing in a revealing way, but with a particular style.

Christians of all people ought to be the least inclined to throw out babies with bathwater.

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  Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePheonix 
All of my arguements and examples are entirely what you are doing, though. You say that Christian Hip-Hop Artists dress in fashion A, therefore they are identifying with a sinful lifestyle, because those who blatantly identify with said sinful lifestyle dress in fashion A.

It’s a totally illogical look at things.

Clothing as an expression is present, yes. But also, and undeniably, present is the desire to not stick out. Sometimes people go purposely against that desire to acheive (oddly) a similar effect to the former. It’s an odd thing that I remember quite well from High School. The student that dresses with spiked hair and chains does so for the exact same reason that the other student dresses in regular T-shirts and jeans: to fit in with a people. They then both declare that they don’t want to be labelled, which I always found hilarious. Part of becoming an individual is trying to find your niche, then realizing that you don’t need one at all. So long as the clothing is modest, let the kids dress the way they want. It’s the only way they will learn what is really going on. If you try to enforce a particular style, they will likely just rebell against it for no particular reason they can think of (there is a perfectly good reason, they just likely won’t be aware of it).

finally, I never said that they shouldn’t dress modestly, or listen to bragging loud-mouthes. I said they should be able to chose thier own style. You can very definitely dress any style and yet maintain modesty. I’ve even seen kids dress modestly wearing “goth” style clothes. They weren’t dressing expensively, nor were they dressing in a revealing way, but with a particular style.

Christians of all people ought to be the least inclined to throw out babies with bathwater.

I completely agree.

I think that a lot of people stereotype Christians with just white people in the rock culture. I’m not at all saying that it’s wrong for someone to be in the rock culture, but Christians shouldn’t be put in a particular group. Why should our God be limited to one culture?
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 08-15-2007    #62 
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  Of course not…

——————————————————————————–

only good music can be holy. and everY1 knows hip hop is awful. 
         

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 08-15-2007    #63 
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  Yes if the lyrics or words praise Christ.

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 08-15-2007    #64 
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  Nope, you totally missed it again.

Artist after artist when interviewed often state it just costumes. But to the kid it’s not.

ThePheonix wrote: Clothing as an expression is present, yes. But also, and undeniably, present is the desire to not stick out. Sometimes people go purposely against that desire to acheive (oddly) a similar effect to the former. It’s an odd thing that I remember quite well from High School. The student that dresses with spiked hair and chains does so for the exact same reason that the other student dresses in regular T-shirts and jeans: to fit in with a people.

And I’ve seen some kids totally uneffected by the “I got to fit in” mindset.

Question. Why is it that I think kids are better, than almost everyone elses comments? I mean, it’s amazing that so many think/feel kids are stuck to act this way or that way and all we can do is give them a so-call Christianized version. Kids are capable of much more than what is being implied here. My kids are totally uneffected by the youth culture of today. Why, because we their parents are part of their lives and tell them how this and other things are design by Satan to deceive both us and them. Isn’t this really what this is all about. Identifying the wiles of the Devil.

ThePheonix wrote: If you try to enforce a particular style, they will likely just rebell against it for no particular reason they can think of (there is a perfectly good reason, they just likely won’t be aware of it).

I’ve asked this question several times. I think it goes right over everybodies head or they are to smart already to think about. Here is the question again. “How does kids know they are being forced?” “Where did they learn it?” More than likely from adults, parents, who tell their kids the stories of how they didn’t like this when they were young. Yet these same adults take about how foolish they were when they were young. Ok, here we have it. I tell the kids what I didn’t like when I was young and that I was foolish when I was young and out comes our kids repeating the same things. Why, because we tell them they are suppose to feel forced. We tell them they are to fit in. We tell them so much of what makes them the way they are and we are convince this is just the way they are, when if anyone have any clear insight, kids are empty vessels and we pour in them good or we pour in them bad. Remember God visited the iniquities of the Fathers upon the children and not the reverse.

Whether anyone wants to admit or not, all of what is being discussed is not for the kids, it for us. So we can say, “we did the best we could, kids a just not the same as they use to be.”

We have given up and this is proof. Because instead of not conforming to this world, we are trying to transform everything world into a Christian version. And we have no answwers except to blame the kids why the Church is no different than the world.
         

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 08-15-2007    #65 
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  Are you one of those who say Jesus was black?
         

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 08-15-2007    #66 
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  Hymns are Christianized secular music…hate to tell ya. Southern Gospel…same thing.
         

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 08-15-2007    #67 
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Yet another HUGE, MIND-BOGGLING leap of logic.
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 08-15-2007    #68 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by kkll4ever 
Are you one of those who say Jesus was black?

No, I’m not… What does that have to do with it, kkII4ever? Do you think our God would want you to have such prejudices?
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 08-15-2007    #69 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordecaid 
only good music can be holy. and everY1 knows hip hop is awful. 

What is it that makes hip-hop awful?… Do you mind further explaining your opinion?
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 08-15-2007    #70 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by RAIDERJO76 
Can hip-hop be holy?

I think it can be holy, but it’s very difficult for that to happen. Given that most Christian Hip-Hop artists are listening to other secular artists, their music is bound to have some of the secular aspects to it. For example, a duo called the Grits in their recent album has more of a secular feel due to the beats and the way they rap. They think they have to keep up with the secular market when they are marketing their music towards Christians. Who knows… It’s a very confusing thing. I think it can be holy, but I think most of it isn’t.
         

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 08-16-2007    #71 
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  I don’t know if Grits is truly Christian hip -hop, I would classify them as inspirational, or positive Hip-hop. I have a hard time accpeting Christian mucis that doesn’t flat out scream Christ Jesus. when I think of Christian hip hop, I think more 116 clique ( young and unashamed of the Christ) Tedashii, Truth, Crea, Flame, Trip( if only he was 3 years older) I think of Cross Movement, off course. people who aren’t afraid to scream Jesus as their anthem… so ya, it can be holy and it is holy with certain artists, I love Christian Hip-Hop, I get to be totally Christian and totally cool no sirr… it’s a nice break from the hymns which i love….
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 08-16-2007    #72 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by Lala 
I don’t know if Grits is truly Christian hip -hop, I would classify them as inspirational, or positive Hip-hop. I have a hard time accpeting Christian mucis that doesn’t flat out scream Christ Jesus. when I think of Christian hip hop, I think more 116 clique ( young and unashamed of the Christ) Tedashii, Truth, Crea, Flame, Trip( if only he was 3 years older) I think of Cross Movement, off course. people who aren’t afraid to scream Jesus as their anthem… so ya, it can be holy and it is holy with certain artists, I love Christian Hip-Hop, I get to be totally Christian and totally cool no sirr… it’s a nice break from the hymns which i love….

Me to those are all my favorite Christian rappers! I completely agree; as long as it’s glorifying Christ, there ain’t nothin’ wrong with it.
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 08-16-2007    #73 
kkll4ever
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  Nevermind. I forgot we ended our discussion a while ago. Good day.
         

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 08-16-2007    #74 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by kkll4ever 
Nevermind. I forgot we ended our discussion a while ago. Good day.

Have I offended you?
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 08-16-2007    #75 
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  Nope.

Has anything change with regard to your perspective of the negative impact the “the holy hip-hop” is having on the youth generations.

My perspective has. I’m certain Satan has deceived many into thinking music, even some so call Christian music is amoral. Music is a big defective factor of the church today. You refuse to look at it, but defend it because it has you wrapped around it’s finger, almost like an addiction. What more is there to discussed?

Have you listened to the messages here?
Dr. Frank Garlock • The Morality of Music

Have you answer the question what is anti-Christian music?
Should Christians listen to anti-Christian music?

I’m sure you haven’t because you are in defense mode and will not hear any other reasoning. As I stated in the last conclusion,

You obviously have all the answer for your generation.
         

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 08-16-2007    #76 
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  Please define “secular beat”. To me that’s like saying “secular car” or “secular fence-post”.
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 08-16-2007    #77 
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  Quote:
Nope.

Has anything change with regard to your perspective of the negative impact the “the holy hip-hop” is having on the youth generations. 

No, I still believe that if something praises Christ’s name, there’s nothing wrong with it.

By the way, why did you put qoutes aroung holy hip-hop?
Quote:
My perspective has. I’m certain Satan has deceived many into thinking music, even some so call Christian music is amoral. Music is a big defective factor of the church today. You refuse to look at it, but defend it because it has you wrapped around it’s finger, almost like an addiction. What more is there to discussed?
 

What? kkll4ever, you need to stop being so close-minded. Who are you to say these things about me? How does the fact that I like music make me wrapped around it’s finger and addicted to it.

I’m not at all refusing to look at it, kkll4ever; you are. In our entire discussion, it has seemed as if you haven’t even read my posts, because you just say the same arguments after I already adress them. I refuse to have any further discussion with you unless you stop being hypocritical, listen to what I have to say, and stop assuming that I’m deceived by Satan just because I like music.

Sorry, but I have a question… Do you think that ALL music is immoral?
Quote:
Have you listened to the messages here?
Dr. Frank Garlock • The Morality of Music

Have you answer the question what is anti-Christian music?
Should Christians listen to anti-Christian music?

I’m sure you haven’t because you are in defense mode and will not hear any other reasoning. 

Why do you talk to me like this? In our entire discussion, I’ve tried so hard to be patient with you, and to not be rude… Did you read my last post before we started discussing this again? I talked about how even though we have different opinions, we are still brothers in Christ. You, however, seem to be under the impresssion that anyone who disagrees with you is close-minded, non-christian, and needs to be insulted. kkll4ever, this is NOT what my Savior taught. I know I’m rude sometimes too, but it seems as if you actually hate me… Is this what our Savior taught?

KKll4ever, I am hearing other reasoning; you are the one who is not… I’ve has to repeat myself countless times during our discussion, and you continue to use the same arguments, as if you aren’t even reading our considering what I’m writing… Am I wasting my time talking with you?… If I am, please be honest… I enjoy respectful, open-minded, intellectual discussions, but I do not have the time to respond to someone if they are only going to insult me and respond without considering what I’m saying…
Quote:
As I stated in the last conclusion,

You obviously have all the answer for your generation. 

What? Just because I have an opinion? When did I say or imply that I have all the answers for my generation? Am I not allowed to have my opinion? What makes you think that you have more right to opinion than I do?
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 08-16-2007    #78 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePheonix 
Please define “secular beat”. To me that’s like saying “secular car” or “secular fence-post”.

I think I was trying to say when some of these artists are imitating styles such as Dirty south rap, that just doesn’t sound as if it can be Christ honoring. I know it’s just a style, but that style in particular has negative connotations. It just has a “Bad” feel to it. I’m probably wrong.
         

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 08-16-2007    #79 
Double-G (G²)
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   Something Interesting to consider (Part 1)….

——————————————————————————–

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkll4ever 
Are you familiar with G Craig Lewis? If yes, what do you think about his perspectives. Is all that he say not worthy of consideration?

If anyone’s interested, FOUNd an interesting website from one of the Artist who does HOLY HIP HOP and some of the Words He has to say on the issue, especially considering G.Craig Lewis take on the issue regarding the difference between “Christian Rap” and “Holy Hip Hop”.

http://www.theambassadoronline.com/a…&columnid=2146

I encourage everyone to investigate it, for it has many valid points that I think many people do not consider when it comes to the issue of culture (just as MR.G.Craig has many valid points on His site regarding the issue of Christian Rap._.)

For an excellent excerpt on the issue,
Quote:
The Christian Living in Hip Hop Times – Part 1
by The Ambassador

Objective:
I quickly want to address 2 things because they are rapidly becoming FAQ’s:
Why Are Christians Defending Hip hop?
Christian “Rap” vs. Christian “hip hop”
Goal:
To persuade those of you who aren’t hardened in your bias to believe that there are many Christians who are apart of the hip hop people group but are more interested in the advancement of the gospel of Jesus Christ than hip hop itself.
To encourage the Church not to shrink back from embracing Christian ambassadors of Jesus Christ who properly submit their hip hop-ness to the lordship of Jesus.
To To explain why “Christian hip hop” is something that is being made too big a deal of.
To encourage greater thought and research among those Christians who have good intentions, but have never biblically worked through the complex issue of the Christian and hip hop.
Q: “WHY ARE CHRISTIANS
DEFENDING HIP HOP?”
It’s so villainous, it’s so sinful; it’s got to be demonic! Why are you Christians defending hip hop? Lately I keep hearing this question and I look in all directions as if to say, “who me?” I’m not defending hip hop! Don’t get it twisted, I know that a lot of people are defending hip hop, but I’m not apart of the camp that feels that need. However, for almost 14 years I have been on a mission to reach the hip hop people group with the gospel as an indigenous missionary to the culture. Every so often I am forced to provide a biblical defense for my claim to be called to reach hip hop culture, and more specifically to reach it indigenously (as a native to it). This current defense would not even be necessary if there had not been a recent revival of anti-Christian hip hop sentiment. This sentiment is from of old, and it is an attempt to make the church detest the hip hop culture to the point where the church ceases to be a missionary to it, and ceases to be a haven for those Christians who consider themselves to be apart of the Christian hip hop community. Let’s dive in.

LET’S GO BACK…
Recently it seems as though hip hop has become the new hot topic in the church. Pastors are buying DVD’s and having their whole congregations (not just the youth group) look at it. They are having discussions and forums about hip hop and often the conclusion is “away with hip hop—away with Christian hip hop!” Long before Craig Lewis’ rise to church-fame many Christians like myself were boldly and radically living out the glorious Christian faith with many of the non-sinful aspects of hip hop still visible.

There were talks of us looking like the world, but as our Christ-like character shined it became difficult for our critics to deny the fact that our primary allegiance was to Christ. Several of our critics became our allies as they became convinced that we were not advocates of the sins within hip hop, only advocates of Christ being lord of the non-sinful elements of hip hop. Daily we lived out the commands of Christ in the sight of a world that was growing in regards to its hip hop orientation. During that time, the church hailed us as beautiful models of what it meant to be in but not of the culture. It was as though we had become a display of Christ-likeness with a hip hop twist.
One thing had become apparent, we shared a common faith with Christians who had no hip hop connection, and we shared certain aspects of a common culture with those who had a deep hip hop connection. This delicate balance is learned over time and through much biblical searching. When the Christian faith is properly integrated with any culture, a beautiful and biblical combination is there present. The fact that our anchoring faith could be lived out through our indigenous culture was news that we had hoped and prayed for.

We had no desire to go off to the side and “do our little hip hop thing,” we wanted to be accepted as apart of the nucleus of the church by our elders and leaders in the faith. We expected to run into some immature people in Christ who would not be able to get beyond our exterior because we see so much of this in the bible. Biblically speaking, one of the marks of spiritual immaturity is a faulty value system. The Corinthians measured value and status the same way their surrounding culture did, so like the culture and unlike God, they despised small and weak things. I
n our present day, I believe something similar is happening. God sees the Christian in hip hop one way, and the church sees us the opposite way. The church can sometimes tend to esteem the appearance of godliness more than godliness itself. When this happens some people judge our Christianity by our appearance, while others will evaluate us on the bases of our faith, conduct, speech and character.
Until recently the Christian hip hopper was enjoying a time of harmony within the church. A glorious example of Ephesians 2:13-16 was in full blaze—one new man made up formerly opposing people groups. Sure, things have not been perfect, but we experienced a time of relative peace between the older generation of believers and this younger generation of believers. Our connection to the non-sinful aspects of hip hop culture was no barrier to our fellowship; in fact this was the key to a strategic partnership. A ministry like Cross Movement was able not only to rise under these conditions, but also flourish.

God used us to spread Christ-centeredness through the means of hip hop music and many believers were strengthened in their resolve to be unashamed Christian witnesses. Hip hop provided us, and groups like ours, the platform to communicate our biblical affections to the hip hop generation and beyond. We were proud to bear the name Christian, and we welcomed being the smell of death to some and the smell of life to others (2 Cor 2:15-16). After many years of faithful service, CM and others were developing “family credibility.”

The church was embracing us and we embraced the church. The church encouraged us to glorify God in our uniqueness while maintaining a commitment to Christian unity. We aspired to do just that. We sought to maintain an oneness with Christians through the centuries while still fulfilling a God given obligation to the surrounding mission field of hip hop culture.
Our mission field has been, and will continue to be the very context that God called us in—the hip hop context. We have been informing this contingent that the church at large is taking an interest in their souls. However, true religion as the apostle James reminds us, is not primarily mystical. True Christianity acknowledges a person’s spiritual and social needs. The world is not accustomed to seeing a hip hop that has been sifted through God’s word.

They only know godless rap and godless hip hop culture. For many of them the thought that God will accept them is far-fetched. To the hip hop generation we announce that they can become apart of God’s family without being totally stripped of their social identity. This great news is now being frustrated by the recent attack on the whole concept of “Christ and hip hop” or “Christian hip hop.” As Christians and church leaders develop distaste for Christian hip hop, the church moves further away from the idea of using the Christian hip hopper as a missionary to the hip hop generation, or making a place for Christian hip hop converts
SO WE ARE NOT DEFENDING HIP HOP
While we are not defending hip hop, we are reminding people of the biblical principle of unity and diversity, the reconciliation of all things, and the rights of all people to enjoy God within the context of their natural elements (as long as those elements are not sinful). We do not deny the sinfulness that exists in the hip hop culture. We do not minimize the crimes committed by the culture, and we have no intention of defending hip hop in the least bit. We simply want to stress that hip hop needs the gospel, and that means hip hop needs indigenous Christian missionaries. Those of us that are Christians of the hip hop generation, desire to display a version of the culture that is absent of the sins that the secular culture has become known for. We want to surrender our culture to the lordship of Christ so that He can use it for his redemptive purposes. We need the whole church to do this.
Stay tuned…
We are asking the church to stay tuned for the implications of properly viewing the relationship of Christians to hip hop. There are too many implications to even begin addressing at this point. However, don’t let your fear or lack of understanding make you a hard hearted skeptic. Let the Scriptures be brought to bear on the subject. Allow me and many of my associates to lay the issue out for you socially, theologically and missionally, and we will all see God glorified among a people that were not his people.

CHRISTIAN “RAP” VS. CHRISTIAN “HIP HOP”
WHY DO WE HAVE TO USE THE TERM CHRISTIAN HIP HOP, WHY CAN’T WE JUST CALL IT CHRISTIAN RAP? THE PLATINUM QUESTION…
People often ask the question,
“Why can’t we call it Christian rap instead of using the word “hip hop”.

People are being persuaded that God is cool with Christian rap, but not with Christian hip hop. The argument goes, “Rap is just music, and hip hop is sinful culture, so God will accept Christianized music, but he will not have anything to do with a sinful culture.” This is more than an issue of semantics; this is an issue of Christian perspective. Whether we are dealing with music or a culture, God can transform it and get glory from it. The transformation of music is as simple as redirecting the music to reflect and promote God’s mindset through the lyrics and goal of the song. The transformation of culture requires the transformation of people because people are at the heart of culture. This process is much more complicated which is probably why many people would rather not even deal with this part. When it’s music—“just change the words.” When dealing with culture you’ve got to change the heart, and this something that only God can do. However he does it through people and that is where you and I come in. The church has to decide whether or not to throw the culture out with the sins, or address the sins in order to see a change in the culture.
Christian Rap vs. Christian Hip Hop
Within the church, the term hip hop is becoming taboo. Even using the term “Christian hip hop” is taboo for some. When people express a desire to substitute the term rap for hip hop I always find this interesting since both terms, rap and hip hop, were coined by the secular world. So if both things and both terms have a secular origin, why are we struggling between which one a Christian can and cannot “Christianize.” Something fishy is going on, and it seems to me that the same people that clearly hate or dislike hip hop, apparently like rap.

They can kick hip hop to the curb but they want to hold on to their rap. Since they don’t want to ruin their chances of enjoying Christian rap they convince people that God is not opposed to Christian rap. While they say this, they insist that he is opposed to Christian hip hop. Now we know that secular rap and secular hip hop are both godless. We also know that some Christian rap and rappers are godless as well. So how is it that we keep hearing some Christians say that we can keep rap if it is submitted to Christ, but hip hop can’t even be submitted to Christ? 

CONTINUED IN NEXT POST…….
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15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge;
the ears of the wise seek it out.
         

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 08-16-2007    #80 
Double-G (G²)
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   Something Interesting to consider on the issue of “CHRISTIAN RAP vs HHH”….(Part 2)

——————————————————————————–

Quote:
THE TRUTH ABOUT RAP AND HIP HOP
You say, “Rap is just music, but hip hop is a sinful culture (way of life).” You are right about both things, but many of you refuse to believe that sin is not inherent to the original agenda of hip hop (that can be fully defended another time). Hip hop originally was just a combination of four platforms of expression, capable of serving whoever got the crowd’s attention.

Like money—money is not evil, but it simply magnifies the abilities of the one in control of it. In the hands of terrorist money can be used to fund diabolical acts, in the hands of the church it can be used to carry out the Great Commission. Likewise, hip hop (a more comprehensive way of expressing yourself) as well as rap (a single format for expressing yourself) can be used to carry out the agenda of Satan or Jesus.
Another thing that many of you refuse to believe (no matter how many times you hear it), is that hip hop can be distinguished from the sinful acts committed by or in the name of hip hop. Listen to this statement by Africa Bambatta, one of the original organizers of hip hop affairs:
Due to their lack of knowledge about the whole of Hip Hop culture, many of our world’s youth are mistaken in thinking that activities such as: smoking blunts, drinking 40’s, wearing a designer label plastered across their chest, carrying a gun, or going to strip clubs are “Hip Hop.” Hip Hop is being portrayed negatively by many artists who work in the element of Rap (emceeing), and this negativity is usually instigated and promoted by the record industry and various other corporations who exploit the culture at the expense of the youth’s state of mind and morality.1
Did you read that? Even one of the pivotal and earliest influencers of hip hop (who’s not a Christian) declares that there is a difference between what we see being perpetrated in hip hop, and what hip hop really is. Hip hop is a servant of whoever is setting its agenda, and right now the world is setting its agenda. But in Christian hip hop, some of us diligently strive to insure that Christ sets the agenda. Hip hop is no more than the tint through which the light of God’s glory can shine. We know that God’s truth alone changes lives, but preaching has been describes as “truth poured through personality.” The “personality” is not the truth, but it is simply the means of providing variety in God’s diverse world.
People are at the root of culture, and neither people nor their culture can just be thrown away. Aspects of their culture can be discarded when those aspects offend God, but you cannot force total cultural assimilation on any group.
You see it’s easy to throw away something you don’t care about, but it’s hard to let go of something you feel an attachment to. It is even in Craig Lewis’ interest to make people believe that Christian rap is ok, because he produces Christian rap and he supports his own Christian rappers (how convenient?). I don’t expect him to relent from his position, but many of you are just being dragged through the mud of his unbiblical positions without really allowing someone who knows both the Bible and the issue of hip hop culture to help you work through a biblical understanding of this issue.
JUST A WORD OF CAUTION…
Please recognize that it may sound spiritual to boycott every secular contribution to humanity, but THIS IS NOT SPIRITUAL BECAUSE THIS IS NOT BIBLICAL! Don’t mistake me for advocating godless secularism, but I do know that many Christians know that everything secular is not inherently sinful or off-limits to the Christian. The term secular can be used simply to describe “that which is not specifically related to religion or to a religious body.” That includes words like “basketball,” “book,” “music,” and other terms that are not necessarily religious in their use. Rap and hip hop are secular, but both can be sanctified by God and made profitable for the Christian.

So simply switching the words rap and hip hop does not help the Christian; they are both secular until Christ gets a hold of them. Christians can use both of these terms and participate in both of these cultural forms without feeling like they are copying the world. God forbids that Christians copy the world’s values, agendas, doctrines, etc., but there is much that we are meant to share with the surrounding world.

To distinguish ourselves in this world we modify terms, abandon certain practices, and redirect agendas. This is a part of the reason why some of us even chose to put Christian in front of hip hop, so that we could serve notice that our hip hop has undergone a change in management. Even this decision to put “Christian” in front of hip hop makes other Christian groups mad. They insist that, there’s no such thing as Christian plumbing, or Christian horse racing, or Christian dry cleaning. (“Lord help me I’m in a catch 22!”)
CHRISTIANS DON’T ALWAYS REMAKE, SOMETIMES WE JUST MODIFY…

When people cynically ask, “What is Christian music,” what are “Christian plays,” what are “Christian bookstores?” I believe they are asking the wrong question.

The question is, what we mean when we say “Christian bookstore,” “Christian plays,” or “Christian music”? Everyone ought to know that in these cases “Christian” is being used as an adjective or a modifier, which is then placed in front of everyday things, to add to, or alter what you would normally think of when you hear those generic things. For example, music today is normally a carrier of godless ideas, “Christian music” claims to carry godly ideas. Regular colleges are usually full of orgies, cheating, and anti/unbiblical education, but Christian college at least seeks to be, and facilitate the opposite of these things. My point is that the negative aspects of these things don’t automatically force Christians to invent some other word for these things, that is impractical and it is nowhere prescribed in Scripture.

However, Christians have often given terms new meaning or higher meaning than the culture around them. The term “church” was a secular term, and Jesus said that he was going to build His church. In the secular world the cross has a negative stigma for being either an offense or foolish, but God did not stay clear of it. Instead he made that which was shameful and foolish, glorious and wise. I AM IN NO WAY EQUATING THE CROSS AND HIP HOP, but I’m just illustrating the way in which believers can take something common, and modify its meaning. In our culture we use modifying words such as adjectives. There is hip hop, but we do Christian hip hop.

YOU ARE SPIRITUAL, BUT ARE YOU SOCIAL?

If Christian is a term to describe your faith and your true spiritual identity then you are in good standing before God, but what is your connection to your social surroundings? Christians are prone to want to love God, and disconnect from people. We usually do this because we think that they are so sinful that God has given us permission to treat them like they have the plague. Guess what, we were designed to have vertical (God-ward), and horizontal (social) connectedness.

We were not left in a totally Christian world, but we were left in a secular world, with a charge to impart our faith into every culture (Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8). That means there will be a social connectedness with mankind (Christian and non-Christian). People are quick to point out the sinfulness of hip hop culture, and I am quick to agree. Hip hop is sinful, but so is every culture. No earthly culture would be cool to identify with if sin was an automatic disqualifier. We could not say that we are African or American because both of these broader cultural contexts, as well as the subcultures within them, are riddled with sin. However, the Bible teaches that cultures are free to develop, but that the sinfulness must be addressed by the transforming power of God’s Spirit.
CONCLUSION
Hip hop does not need a defense, and Christian hip hop is the free choice of the believers who want to use this concept to capture both a spiritual and social identity. Please people, understand the issue. We are not defending hip hop or seeking to imitate the world. We are in Christ, I hope when you see us you can tell. We live in the world, and I hope that when you see us you can tell. It just so happens to be that for the Christian hip hopper, he/she is in Christ and in a hip hop oriented world—that should explain things. 

Again, hope this proves to be of interest to anyone who’d investigate…..Peace
__________________
 

——————————————————————————–

Here’s another interesting excerpt from the site that I discovered which I found very interesting…..based off of the passage in Scripture where Paul Rebuked Peter
Quote:
Galatians 2:10-22
10All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.
Paul Opposes Peter

11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
15″We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
17″If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”[a] 
Moving onto the excerpt itself……

Quote:

http://www.theambassadoronline.com/a…&columnid=2146
DO WE REALLY LOVE THOSE “OTHER” PEOPLE?
I never imagined being ensnared in a theological and “missiological” debate about a culture (hip hop) that I have been countering for nearly 15 years. To listen to me in sermon or on CD, or my inner-circle of ministry partners, and suggest that we have an allegiance to godless hip hop or Christian hip hop culture is ABSURD! To listen to us and hear anything other than an appeal that the church embrace the saved and converted people of that culture is to hear what you want to hear.

To hear anything other than a plea for the church to engage and evangelize the unconverted of the culture without dumping personal preferences on them is to hear what you want to hear. We are all under obligation to love God and man. Don’t tell me that you love me or you accept me, but yet you reject everything about me that distinguishes me from you and your preferred group. To accept a people means to allow them the freedom to be different (assuming those differences are not sinful.) Every one of us want to be accepted without having to become something or someone that we are not.

WE DO MISSIONS NOT LAUNCH CRUSADES
During the Crusades, conversions were forced by the sword of a man. Real mission work is conducted by the sword of the Spirit (the word of God). We are not supposed to be forcing people to become like us. We are supposed to be urging them to become like Christ—the robe and sandal-wearing, Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek speaking, carpenter/rabbi who followed Jewish customs perfectly. We do not want them to wear what he wore, speak like he spoke, and observe any custom that does not transcend all cultures for all times. We want them to embrace this one Lord by grace through faith.
So for the record—Jesus is God in the flesh, second person of the triune Godhead. He is 100% God and 100% man and as such, He provides us the perfect example of true humanity. After living a perfect life—dying a substitutionary death for sinners, RESURRECTING, and sending the Holy Spirit to indwell believers—He commanded His people to go into all the world and make disciples. As a motivating promise, He said that He would be with all who fulfilled this great commission. Since that time, believers have been seeing this commandment as both a privilege and a responsibility.
It’s a privilege to think that a perfect God would enlist such imperfect people to carry out His plans. It is a responsibility because He gave us a great commandment and not a great suggestion.
Since the missionary journeys of Paul and the like, so much has changed and so much has remained the same. Though Paul was a Jew culturally and religiously, it is worth noting that he did not add to his gospel message the cultural baggage of Judaism.
IT’S ABOUT SO MUCH MORE
We plead with you out there if you have spiritual eyes to see—and a heart for He preached Christ. Yet, due to the opposition from Jews who did not want Gentile culture “polluting” the church, Paul did have to preach reconciliation of the Jew, Gentile, barbarian, slave, and free. He actually preached about the Gentile’s freedom to participate in the kingdom of God, and argued with his friend Peter about confusing this issue of free access to Christ for the non-Jew (Gal 2:11-14). So he preached the Gospel, but also he preached freedom from Jewish culture. lost people groups of the earth—stop distorting and confusing the issue. This is about more than just rappin’ or wearing fitted caps and Timberlands. This is about more than just going to church. This is about more than “just being Christian.” This is about the church’s responsibility to be the sending agent into every people group until Christ comes back. This is about indigenous missions—people doing missions among those that they are socially native to.

All these arguments prove is that there will always be a group who acts like their cultural expression and their norms are right, and therefore superior to someone else’s. The hip hoppers, along with other emerging groups within our pluralistic and postmodern society, are minorities within today’s church circles. There will always be some who think that they have a right to force these emerging groups to culturally assimilate. I believe that we ought to proceed with the mission to reach out and engage all peoples both cross-culturally and indigenously.

DON’T BE A MISSIONARY IF…
I pray that you prayerfully reconsider your participation in urban missions:
• If your understanding of the devil’s involvement in the origins of hip hop is more aligned with Craig Lewis than reality
• If you are not able to perceive and appreciate the damage being inflicted by the misunderstanding Craig Lewis and those like him have of the hip hop missionary movement
• If you think God perceives your culture as the highest and best culture in the world
• If you think that culture is unimportant and only spirituality is
• If you think that God rejects non-sinful aspects of every culture except yours
In this state you are a hazard to the missionary enterprise. You will burden people with your preferences and forge God’s signature on your personal tastes and styles. You will unload your logic and your made-up laws, while simultaneously claiming that “God told you to do it.” You will be proud of yourself when people from other contexts look and act like you in every way, and you will give them spiritual a “thumbs up” for what is really only an external change of wardrobe and musical style. You will trick them into thinking that they are internally righteous because externally they have burned a couple of CDs and stripped off their hip hop gear.

I’m not being sarcastic or insensitive—I mean this as a sobering caution. God is glorified when the diversity that He intended is promoted and even celebrated. Paul argued in favor of the freedom of the Gentiles. He even opposed Peter when Peter started acting like it was a Christian crime to act like a Gentile (Gal 2:14). This is a theological problem and Cross Movement and others have been wise in trying to reason with the larger Christian community about this collective mission. The mission is the transmission of our faith, not the downloading of our culture.

Recommending cultural modifications is ok, but degrading non-sinful—yet different—ways of existing in Christ is a crime. God does not support this and even a glance at Scripture reveals this.
 

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 08-16-2007    #82 
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  You see, your responses is why I ended the discussion. You are defensive and not thinking.

I will answer only one of your comments and I’m done.
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How does the fact that I like music make me wrapped around it’s finger and addicted to it? 

Simply because you refuse to look at it as a possible cause of immorality by Christian Youth. Your own words are self evident.

You have a great day.
         

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 08-16-2007    #83 
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  Incorrect. Hymns are taught in scripture.

Eph 5:19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Col 3:16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

I’m curious of where you are getting your information.
         

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 08-16-2007    #84 
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  “Incorrect. Hymns are taught in scripture.”

The musical style they are in is an old secular style. Go read a musical history book.
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 08-16-2007    #85 
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  Yes, I’m defending the possibility of hip-hop being holy, but how does that mean I’m not thinking?… Are you not thinking when you defend Christianity?

Can you please tell me what’s wrong with my response?… What should I have done to not be so offensive?

No, I’m not refusing to look at it as a possible cause of immorality by Christian Youth… What have I said to give you this impression? Am I not allowed to have my opinion without being accused of this?

Also, if you’re going to blame music for the general immorality of Christian Youth, why are you blaming hip-hop? Most Christian music being listened to is Christian rock…

You have a great day too… Can I please just ask something of you?… Do you mind sticking around a little while longer, because I’m kind of getting the impression that you aren’t even considering my opinion. I guess I could be wrong, but I would appreciate it if you could at lease consider opinion, even if you don’t agree with it. Thanks, Peace.
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 08-16-2007    #86 
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  “I think I was trying to say when some of these artists are imitating styles such as Dirty south rap, that just doesn’t sound as if it can be Christ honoring. I know it’s just a style, but that style in particular has negative connotations. It just has a “Bad” feel to it. I’m probably wrong.”

I would call “dirty south” a flavor of the style of Hip-Hop. Kind of like, say, death metal is a flavor of the style of metal. I personaly have no conviction that either dirty south or death metal as flavors of music are inherently bad or good.
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 08-17-2007    #87 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePheonix 
“I think I was trying to say when some of these artists are imitating styles such as Dirty south rap, that just doesn’t sound as if it can be Christ honoring. I know it’s just a style, but that style in particular has negative connotations. It just has a “Bad” feel to it. I’m probably wrong.”

I would call “dirty south” a flavor of the style of Hip-Hop. Kind of like, say, death metal is a flavor of the style of metal. I personaly have no conviction that either dirty south or death metal as flavors of music are inherently bad or good.

Well, I’ve heard of some Christians doing Death Metal type music and I would say that it would be hard for most people to separate the “feel” of the music from its secular counterparts. I know there was a group called Living Sacrifice that was a death metal group. Even though what I could understand of the music sounded like it had a Christian subject, but how could it really be Christ honoring when you’re taking music that sounds like that and applying a Christian theme to it? I think certain styles of music have an overtone to it. One that cannot be escaped. Can you imagine someone rapping about Christ saving them with a dirty south style? It’s likely to go over most people’s head. I’m not saying that Holy music needs to be flutes and harps only, but there’s clearly a line that needs to be drawn. Or maybe this is just what I think. I’m not saying I’m right or wrong, but that what I think.
         

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 08-17-2007    #88 
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  To you it may sound like something to anger or aggitate you. To others it may depress. To those of us who like the sound, it sounds like our hearts. Each person’s heart can be broken by the world in different ways and leave different scars. This is important because in order for a person to worship God or to understand a message of His in song, the song must be able to touch the person’s heart. If you try to take someone who “feels like death metal” and feed them with Gregorian hymns to help them worship God or understand Him better, it will be like trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

One song (non-death metal, but metal nonetheless) that touched me recently in the way it was done was Bleeding Tree by Jacob’s Dream. At the end the singer cries out “ELI….ELI…Lamaschabethani….”. The song is about how the blood (Christ’s) from the bleeding tree (the cross) can “heal your wounds” and “break the spell of the curse’s chains”. The exclamation at the end suddenly throws the listener into picturing Jesus on the cross all over again making it clear what is being spoken about and putting the whole song into focus. It does all this while giving a huge amount of power (the thing that most Christian rock/metal fans think most Christian music lacks) to the sound of the cross as well as the message of it.

As for being loud in various ways..I doubt the Trumpet of the Lord is going to be very politely quiet.
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 08-17-2007    #89 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePheonix 
To you it may sound like something to anger or aggitate you. To others it may depress. To those of us who like the sound, it sounds like our hearts. Each person’s heart can be broken by the world in different ways and leave different scars. This is important because in order for a person to worship God or to understand a message of His in song, the song must be able to touch the person’s heart. If you try to take someone who “feels like death metal” and feed them with Gregorian hymns to help them worship God or understand Him better, it will be like trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

One song (non-death metal, but metal nonetheless) that touched me recently in the way it was done was Bleeding Tree by Jacob’s Dream. At the end the singer cries out “ELI….ELI…Lamaschabethani….”. The song is about how the blood (Christ’s) from the bleeding tree (the cross) can “heal your wounds” and “break the spell of the curse’s chains”. The exclamation at the end suddenly throws the listener into picturing Jesus on the cross all over again making it clear what is being spoken about and putting the whole song into focus. It does all this while giving a huge amount of power (the thing that most Christian rock/metal fans think most Christian music lacks) to the sound of the cross as well as the message of it.

As for being loud in various ways..I doubt the Trumpet of the Lord is going to be very politely quiet.

This is one of those things that are relative. I like some hard rock music like P.O.D. that has spiritual themes, so I definitely know where you’re coming from. I guess where the problem might come in with say music like this is if the artists are being influenced by their secular counterparts. This you truly don’t know, but would be evident in their video or something.

I’m not a fan of today’s Hip-Hop. I was in the earlier 90’s, but I’ve seen people who claim they were rapping for God sending mixed messages like wearing (For lack of a better word…) Bling and flaunting it and then saying that they’re a Christian. I don’t keep up with today’s “Christian” rap scene, so I don’t know who’s hot, but it SEEMS as if some of these guys are trying to hard to appear cool(Saying certain slang and making certain gestures) and then talk about Christ. I can’t speak about the Christian Death Metal much because that is not my type of music. However, as far as Hip-Hop goes I know about the culture. It seems as if it would be hard to totally be in it as a Christian.
         

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 08-17-2007    #90 
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  You really need to read your bible. I don’t negate history, but it seems you rely more on man’s knowledge than God’s. I think I understand why you answer the way you do and why you would request Christians to address anything without scripture.

Isa 8:20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

Psa 119:130The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
         

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 08-17-2007    #91 
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  Quote:
No, I’m not refusing to look at it as a possible cause of immorality by Christian Youth… What have I said to give you this impression? 

When have you once agreed that what I’m proposing is anything but ridiculous?
Quote:
Do you mind sticking around a little while longer, because I’m kind of getting the impression that you aren’t even considering my opinion. I guess I could be wrong, but I would appreciate it if you could at lease consider opinion, even if you don’t agree with it. Thanks, Peace. 

OK. Let me put it some more meat around the point I’m trying to get others and yourself understand. First, because you say you are an high schooler, this mean that when I was in youth ministry, I worked with those your age. Second, I had maybe 3 or 4 of my own kids in youth ministry when I as youth pastor. Third, I’ve been doing ministry for at least 15 years and been a Christian for over 30 years. Yes, I got saved very young and have been observing, learning, studying people and why they do what they do and my text book was/is the bible and the teacher was the Holy Spirit.

And so you come along and try and tell me all the things I use to say myself. I said myself, I argued just like you did and was able to hold my own like yourself. And just like I’m just letting you live by what you want to live by because you want to live by it and you won’t let anyone tell you what to live by, people let me go my own way and do my own thing. Again, because I knew my argument and I knew my position and I knew whatever was being told me was old, archaic churchianity.

But as I stated in several previous posting, I could not reconcile my position with the degrading conditions of the youth. Now why would I keep doing the same thing, if the thing was not yeilding results?

I also stated, part of the reason for the argument are the change lives. And I have no problem with despite was is happening with the majority, remember it’s not the majority that it is happening to.
         

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 08-17-2007    #92 
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  Those verses have no bearing on this situation. I’ve yet to see you use one verse that has in ANY of your posts with me, but I’ll let that go and won’t belabor the point.

Hymns come from God. The STYLE of the hymn does not. The BEAT of the hymn does not. God inspires Christian men and women to make music, they then take what they already know of music and compose a hymn. What they know of music is purely a cultural, social set of preferences and capabilities. I.E. God may inspire a man with the words “rock of ages, cleft for me, let me hide, myself in thee”, but the man who was given the brilliance and beauty of those words then uses the instruments available and writes the song in a melody and beat that people around him will accept.

Christian Hip Hop is quite blatantly a hymn. They are doing nothing more with thier music and style of dress and speech than any other hymn writer who wore the same clothes before and after producing the hymn and spoke exactly the same way.

And I tell you out of concern and love, you really ought not to cast too harsh a judgement on people’s musical ministries. Especially when they are following a perfectly sound principle of ministry: to “become all things to all people” just as Paul did. To Greeks, he became a Greek using logical argumentation to prove his points, to Jews he became a Jew showing how in the Old Testament and in the law that Jesus must be the Christ, and to the Romans he became a Roman to tell of the glory of God in all His power.

If people are wrong in thier style of worship, then God will correct as He sees fit. Most likely He won’t hold them at all guilty of any sin in it if thier attitude was correct. If, however, their style of worship is entirely acceptable to God, then you mock thier offerings to Him, which is a dangerous place to be.
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 08-17-2007    #93 
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  There are notably some artists in the Christian Hip Hop genre that IMO get out of line with their lyrics. I’m not defending, nor would I, any occurance of such. These are, however, mutant occurances in what I think is a normally Christ-centered genre. There are many Christian Hip Hop artists who shun the very idea of doing such things and mention so in either song or interview. But the same thing happens in our churches doesn’t it? Some preachers go way out of thier way to appeal to unbelievers to such a degree that the Gospel is (if present) impossible to discern at all. Meanwhile, others do no such thing. It wouldn’t be fair to lump them all into the same batch and say that preaching as a ministry is bad. No, this is wear individual discernment comes in, and honestly, I think today’s teens are quite well equipped (if having been raised even to the point of caring about any possible differences in the first place) to make these distinctions. I was one not long ago, and know quite a few myself.
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 08-17-2007    #94 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePheonix 
There are notably some artists in the Christian Hip Hop genre that IMO get out of line with their lyrics. I’m not defending, nor would I, any occurance of such. These are, however, mutant occurances in what I think is a normally Christ-centered genre. There are many Christian Hip Hop artists who shun the very idea of doing such things and mention so in either song or interview. But the same thing happens in our churches doesn’t it? Some preachers go way out of thier way to appeal to unbelievers to such a degree that the Gospel is (if present) impossible to discern at all. Meanwhile, others do no such thing. It wouldn’t be fair to lump them all into the same batch and say that preaching as a ministry is bad. No, this is wear individual discernment comes in, and honestly, I think today’s teens are quite well equipped (if having been raised even to the point of caring about any possible differences in the first place) to make these distinctions. I was one not long ago, and know quite a few myself.

I think for the most part, it’s pretty hard to be a Christian Hip-Hop artist these days. I give a lot of credit to the ones that are doing it the right way. I’m not saying their ministry is bad, but I think we should imitate the world’s styles. Especially when certain styles could be down right difficult to execute in a Holy way.
         

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 08-17-2007    #95 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePheonix 
Those verses have no bearing on this situation. I’ve yet to see you use one verse that has in ANY of your posts with me, but I’ll let that go and won’t belabor the point.

Hymns come from God. The STYLE of the hymn does not. The BEAT of the hymn does not. God inspires Christian men and women to make music, they then take what they already know of music and compose a hymn. What they know of music is purely a cultural, social set of preferences and capabilities. I.E. God may inspire a man with the words “rock of ages, cleft for me, let me hide, myself in thee”, but the man who was given the brilliance and beauty of those words then uses the instruments available and writes the song in a melody and beat that people around him will accept.

Christian Hip Hop is quite blatantly a hymn. They are doing nothing more with thier music and style of dress and speech than any other hymn writer who wore the same clothes before and after producing the hymn and spoke exactly the same way.

And I tell you out of concern and love, you really ought not to cast too harsh a judgement on people’s musical ministries. Especially when they are following a perfectly sound principle of ministry: to “become all things to all people” just as Paul did. To Greeks, he became a Greek using logical argumentation to prove his points, to Jews he became a Jew showing how in the Old Testament and in the law that Jesus must be the Christ, and to the Romans he became a Roman to tell of the glory of God in all His power.

If people are wrong in thier style of worship, then God will correct as He sees fit. Most likely He won’t hold them at all guilty of any sin in it if thier attitude was correct. If, however, their style of worship is entirely acceptable to God, then you mock thier offerings to Him, which is a dangerous place to be.

If this reply was meant for me, I’ll tell you that I haven’t casted judgement on a single person. I never named any names. All I said is that the Dirty south style of rap has negative connotations and doesn’t sound too Christ honoring to me. If someone can execute it well, that’s great. I’m all for them even if I detest the style.
         

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 08-17-2007    #96 
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  I really hate to do this to you. The verses relate to the disregard of scripture when discussing this topic.

You really need to read your bible. I don’t negate history, but it seems you rely more on man’s knowledge than God’s. I think I understand why you answer the way you do and why you would request Christians to address anything without scripture.

Isa 8:20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

Psa 119:130The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
Quote:
God may inspire a man with the words “rock of ages, cleft for me, let me hide, myself in thee”, but the man who was given the brilliance and beauty of those words then uses the instruments available and writes the song in a melody and beat that people around him will accept. 

And based on your thinking God’s inspiration is worldly. Your logic is really getting strange to follow. Please stop speaking in defense of the world and speak in defense of God. God said hymns. You previously stated the scripture had nothing to say at all about nmusic. Now that you see scripture does, you are attempting to make it something from which the world make it work. What are you saying?

As to the rest of your comments. You have not read my comments and have not consider my approach. Your comments are addressed to me out of a stereotypical mindset. If something has failure in it, then examine it for the failure. What is condemning about that?
         

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 08-17-2007    #97 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage5 
I think for the most part, it’s pretty hard to be a Christian Hip-Hop artist these days. I give a lot of credit to the ones that are doing it the right way. I’m not saying their ministry is bad, but I think we should imitate the world’s styles. Especially when certain styles could be down right difficult to execute in a Holy way.

I meant to say that we should NOT imitate the world’s styles. Certain things are reasonable, but certain things aren’t. You have to draw the line somewhere.
         

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 08-18-2007    #98 
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  Quote:
When have you once agreed that what I’m proposing is anything but ridiculous?
 

The fact that I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean I’m being close-minded… I can easily say the same thing to you.
Quote:
OK. Let me put it some more meat around the point I’m trying to get others and yourself understand. First, because you say you are an high schooler, this mean that when I was in youth ministry, I worked with those your age. Second, I had maybe 3 or 4 of my own kids in youth ministry when I as youth pastor. Third, I’ve been doing ministry for at least 15 years and been a Christian for over 30 years. Yes, I got saved very young and have been observing, learning, studying people and why they do what they do and my text book was/is the bible and the teacher was the Holy Spirit.

And so you come along and try and tell me all the things I use to say myself. I said myself, I argued just like you did and was able to hold my own like yourself. And just like I’m just letting you live by what you want to live by because you want to live by it and you won’t let anyone tell you what to live by, people let me go my own way and do my own thing. Again, because I knew my argument and I knew my position and I knew whatever was being told me was old, archaic churchianity.
 

I don’t at all have a problem with “churchianity.” I do my best to follow the teachings of the church (as long as they are Biblical, of course.)
Quote:
But as I stated in several previous posting, I could not reconcile my position with the degrading conditions of the youth. Now why would I keep doing the same thing, if the thing was not yeilding results?
 

But why of all things to you blame Christian hip-hop for the fact that the majority of the youth aren’t godly? Why not the t.v. they watch? Or the books they read? Or what they’re taught in class? Why do you come to the conclusion that it’s music’s fault, and Christian hip-hop’s in particular?… I think you have a fairly reasonable point, but I just don’t understand why the thing you are blaming is Christian rap…
Quote:
I also stated, part of the reason for the argument are the change lives. And I have no problem with despite was is happening with the majority, remember it’s not the majority that it is happening to. 

That may be true; there may be more people that remain unchanged than those that are changed. But that doesn’t in any way mean that Christian hip-hop is bad… What about those that are changed?… Should they not have been allowed this opportunity to hear the Gospel for the first time through hip-hop, and in doing so being saved, simply because some people remain unchanged?

There may be people that aren’t changed… But I can honestly say that this ministry does reach and change a lot of people, including myself. A lot of times, I learn something about Christianity or God that I hadn’t learned before, just by listening to the lyrics of these songs… It spiritually builds me up… Should I not be allowed to listen to this music that encourages me so much, simply because some people aren’t changed?

Thanks for your response. And please remember, although I may not agree with you on this issue, I still consider you my brother and Christ, and I hope we can still get along despite our disagreement on this subject. Thanks, Peace.
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 08-18-2007    #99 
kkll4ever
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  Just to be clear. Even if “holy hip-hop” is a cause of error in many lives, we can ignore it? And please don’t say I have not provided evidence (go back and read). But if your answer is yes and that is what it has been, this is not just a disagreement, but a disagreeing close mind.

To run with the crowd or supporters, does not mean the crowd or supporters are accurate.

But, I take from this that we are finally done. Good day.
         

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 08-19-2007    #100 
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  Quote:
Just to be clear. Even if “holy hip-hop” is a cause of error in many lives, we can ignore it? 

No. But my whole point is that your entire argument is based on the presupposition that holy hip-hop is the cause of error in many lives.
Quote:
And please don’t say I have not provided evidence (go back and read). 

Sure, you’ve provided evidence that the Christian youth isn’t where it should be, but during this entire discussion, you’ve been presupposing that holy hip-hop is the problem; you’ve yet to show how Christian hip-hop is the cause.
Quote:
But if your answer is yes and that is what it has been, this is not just a disagreement, but a disagreeing close mind.
 

Whatever… I’ve tried to be patient and to consider your views… However, it’s getting kind of hard, because you are being extremely hypocritical.
Quote:
To run with the crowd or supporters, does not mean the crowd or supporters are accurate. 

Amen.
Quote:
But, I take from this that we are finally done. Good day. 

Hold on. Why is it that you continue to talk to me like this- as if I am some kind of pain in your butt, and as if you actually hate me? I thought I’ve been fairly nice, especially in my last post… What is it that I’ve done to offend you?
 

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No. But my whole point is that your entire argument is based on the presupposition that holy hip-hop is the cause of error in many lives. 

Yepe. I know and knew this. And that is how you responded everytime. Notice you only address the parts of my statement that provide a platform for you to launch into your soap box.

You never address the whether you only saw my comments as ridiculous. If I miss my guess, when you turned on your PC and saw that I hold commented, you said under your breath something like, “let me see what this fool/nigga is talking about now.” IF not this strong, something close. When you open my comments, you already had a soap box of words to wash my mouth out with your soap. Hopefully you understand the analogy. If the truth be known you and all your crowd reading alone and supporters all did the same thing, probably sent IMs to each other, discuss my perspective and whatever. In other words, birds of a feather just flocked together and run shotgun for each other.

You did not directly admit it, but you know I’m telling you the absolute truth. People are listening to “christian hip-hop” and getting dopped up, freaked out, sex up, in the same fashion as secular hip-hop.

Here’s a test. Doing the next youth jam. Play some Crossment or KJ52 or T-Done or DaTruth. And watch what happens. I think already know. And even you will probably begin to pop your hips and “toe ya hand in de air.”

Then play a traditional version of the Hymn “Amazing Grace.” I garauntee it that the booty shaken will stop.
Quote:
Whatever… I’ve tried to be patient and to consider your views… However, it’s getting kind of hard, because you are being extremely hypocritical. 

Sir, I must admit that you are extremely good at dodging truth. Hypocritical. I asking you to open your eyes and see the damned of the youth generation and all you can say is that I being hypocritical. Who told you throw this line out as if it had any slight of truth? You obviously do not know what hypocritical mean. It simply means in the greek, to put on an act or show. Now, how many christian hip-hip shows have you been to or acts have you seen.

As I think you once stated, “get your head out of the sand.” 1 of 100 kids being effected for good and the other 99 are just shaken dair grove thang by christian hip-hop are ridiculous statistics. But you know better than what you and I both see.
Quote:
Hold on. Why is it that you continue to talk to me like this- as if I am some kind of pain in your butt, and as if you actually hate me? I thought I’ve been fairly nice, especially in my last post… What is it that I’ve done to offend you? 

Nope you’re not a pain in the butt. And don’t compliment yourself by thinking you have anything to say that offends me. Remember I was a youth pastor. I dealt with your type all the time. You are just typical of this generation of music (christianized bread youth. My goal in even given you this much was because even though I do not work directly with youth anymore, I believe they have great potential. The greatest problem you and most youth have is that you think adults are your enemies. You may not say it, but you treat them this way in almost every action.
         
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 08-19-2007    #102 
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  I think another question we have to ask is….

Will whatever music lead you into worship of God. Sure a song can mention Jesus and salvation a couple of times, but does it lead you into worship or lead you into seeking God more? I think a lot of Christian music regardless of genre is guilty of probably not doing this. Adding to that what is the goal of Christian music? I thought it was to lead you to seek God and/or worship Him.

It’s like some years ago when people were complaining about Kirk Franklin bringing his style of music into the church. Could it be relative? Is the music really changing lives and causing people to seek God more?
         

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 08-19-2007    #103 
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  Define hymn.
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 08-19-2007    #104 
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  Wasn’t replying to you.
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 08-20-2007    #105 
Double-G (G²)
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   Something interesting to consider….

——————————————————————————–

Found some interesting thoughts elsewhere that I thought might prove interesting to the discussion:

Quote:
Like someone said before TV, Hip hop, Drugs, Internet, Pornography, etc, are not making people sin. It is their sinful hearts, that turn them to things/practices that are not godly.
Will I listen to Jazz, Hiphop, R&B, Watch Movies, use the Internet, watch Secular TV Programs, go to secular concerts? Certainly!
Will I listen to music, watch movies, participate in anything that glorifies Satan and Blasphemes God? Heck NO!
The inevitable question is “because something is secular, does that mean it is a sin”. I certainly don’t think so. Now if your “conscience” is troubled then you shouldn’t engage in it. I have the liberty in Christ. Now if my brother is offended, or feels that what I’m doing could cause him to sin, then I should stop listening to my music, watching movies that he feels are sinful for “his” sake.
This does not mean I should go and abuse my freedom, by indulging in “sinful” practices. According to Romans 14, and 15.

From what I have seen from G Craige Lewis, he does not believe in Christian Liberty, I see him as one who practices salvation by works and not grace. eg He does not believe a christian should listen or dance to secular music, he believes that you can’t wear RocaWear, Sean John etc. He does not believe men can wear earrings, or can have dreadlocks, or even wear pink. I’m not suprised that he believes these things since he is a “Hyper-pentecostal” who practices salvation by works and not by grace. He takes delight in attacking Holy Hip hop, but he produces christian hip hop.

How about your wicked lifestyle was a direct result of your DEPRAVITY and not Hip Hop. Brother you guys are fools if you think Hip Hop is the problem. This kids and adults can go and crush all the CD’s they want. They are just treating a symptom and not a problem.
Is it like giving someone pain killer to help with an arrow in their back. A soon as the medicine wears off you are going to need more. Just take the arrow out his back. The same logic goes for hip hop. This wicked music isn’t make these kids or you wicked, your wickedness leads you to music that hates God.
The problem is Christ doesn’t have their (or yours – past tense) affections. Most are religious at best, but a relationship is foreign to them. So crush the CD’s and keep chasing demons out of people. The end result is going to be the same. Without a regenerated heart SIN is going to take it’s righful place and that is 1st place. It is the same as Christians marching on planned parenthood.
Planned Parenthood isn’t the problem with abortions, people who get abortions are the problem. I will say this again and I want to make it clear. Crush your CD’s denounce Hip Hop, and do whatever else you think is going to help with DEPRAVITY of these youth and then come back and holler at me in couple of years. Unless God has quickened their hearts and removed the blliders from their eyes that they may respond to the call of the Gospel message, they will still be jacked up, maybe religious and we have droves of examples of that in the church today. 

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the ears of the wise seek it out.
         

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 08-20-2007    #106 
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  Don’t tell me you agree with this logic.

It’s all about influence. Being enticed. Being made to commit evil.

God understands influence. Or else why would He instruct the children of Israel to destroy everything.

Deu 11:16Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

1Ki 11:2Of the nations [concerning] which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: [for] surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.

Some thing overt and some covert in their influence. But given enough exposure you will start to run the new program acquired by all the stuff you let into your mind.

What do think meant when He stated He was the word? Words influence, sounds influence. Our five senses are gates of influence. What you let in them will influence you for evil or good.
         

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 08-20-2007    #107 
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  First. Here are 4 verses where hymn is used. Remember you commented the scripture does not say anything about music.

Mat 26:30And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. Mar 14:26And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Here is the greek definition the word hymn in these two verses.
1) to sing the praise of, sing hymns to
2) to sing a hymn, to sing
a) singing of paschal hymns these were Psalms 113 – 118 and 136, which the Jews called the “great Hallel”

The two other verses.
Eph 5:19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Col 3:16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

definition of hymns:
See Definition for humnos G5215 (Currently Viewing)
See Definition for psalmos G5568
See Definition for ode G5603
G5603 is the generic term; G5568 and G5215 are specific, the former designating a song which took its general character from the OT Psalms, although not restricted to them, the later a song of praise. While the leading idea of G5568 is a musical accompaniment, and that of G5215 praise to God, G5603 is the general word for a song, whether accompanied or not, whether of praise or on any other subject. Thus it is quite possible for the same song to be at once described by all three of these words.
         

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 08-20-2007    #108 
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   Something else noteworthy to consider regarding Hip Hop, Culture, & the Gospel

——————————————————————————–

Regarding the question of whether Hip Hop can be Holy or not, I thought it might be noteworthy to bring in the voices of others outside of the converstation and who could possibly help to bring more clarity on the issue of whether or not certain aspects of a culture can be REDEEMED for CHRIST/HIS GLORY….snd this seems especially relevant when it comes to the issue of HIP HOP. Here it is…..
Quote:
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1343

Introduction

A number of years ago as I sat on the platform waiting to preach, my friend who was doing the morning introductions leaned over and with a sigh whispered in my ear, “I’ve just been in the high school class, and the whole hour they were playing guitars and singing.” After the final hymn, my friend stood to introduce me by saying, “At this church we always study through the Scriptures book by book, chapter by chapter.”

These preliminary remarks unnerved me, since on this particular Sunday I had chosen to depart from my normal pattern of systematic exposition! My text was 2 Samuel 6, the account of David dancing before the ark of God, much to the dismay of his wife, Michal. I had purposed to say that in the matter of church music, we are all too often like Michal, too proud to let down our hair and worship with music which is enthusiastic. Perhaps you can understand how uneasy I felt as I began my sermon on that Sunday morning.

The people in the audience had conflicting views about church music. Emotions ran high on all sides of the issue. Music is not taken lightly because it plays a significant role in our worship. More than one church has been split over a matter so insignificant as the presence or absence of a piano.
I must honestly confess that I am more uneasy about this particular message than I was about my message on 2 Samuel 6. Then, I spoke only about music and its role in worship, but today, I am addressing music as an example of a broader category—culture. At first glance the subject of culture may seem innocuous, but this is far from the truth. One treads on very thin ice when addressing the subject of the relationship of Christianity to culture.

There are several reasons for my apprehension concerning this subject. First, culture is something in which we are immersed and consequently we are rarely conscious of it. It is something akin to asking a fish what it thinks about water, or a bird about the atmosphere. Culture is the atmosphere in which we live without consciously thinking about it.

Did you think about why you drove on the right-hand side of the road on the way to church instead of on the left as people of other countries do? Did you think about sitting beside your wife as you entered the auditorium, instead of segregating men and women as practiced in some churches in India?

These examples may help you to see that we don’t think a great deal about culture—our own culture at least. We are only aware of our cultural practices when we are confronted with opposing customs of other cultures. Culture is assimilated, almost by osmosis, not by instruction. Since cultural traditions are observed without consideration, we tend to accept them without thinking of them.
Second, culture is often intertwined with strong feelings of right and wrong which we have held as Christian convictions, rather than as personal or societal preferences. The use of alcohol and tobacco, the enjoyment of the theater or of television, and the issue of dancing are just a few issues often included in the list of Christian “don’ts.”

A study of the history of the church reveals that these particular prohibitions have not characterized Christian values with any degree of consistency. The reformers, to whom we appeal in matters of soteriology, had no problem with smoking or drinking. It was only some years later that these were considered sins and added to the list of Christian taboos. At times, even coffee and tea were on the list of forbidden items for Christians.

Third, culture is not universal. We know that, of course, at least in principle. We expect people from foreign countries to think, to act and to dress differently. Yet we are not always willing to recognize different cultures, even within our church. One significant contributing factor to the so-called “generation gap” is the difference of culture which exists between these age groups.

If you don’t believe me, listen to the music which “turns on” your children, as opposed to what you enjoy. Lawrence Welk is not the name of the game for any but the geriatric generation.

If I am correct in concluding that culture is often unconscious and yet a matter of strong conviction, you can see why I approach this subject with fear and trembling. When a matter is discussed about which people have very strong feelings and yet have not really seriously contemplated, there is bound to be some reaction. In light of this, I ask that you make a sincere effort to withhold judgment until you have considered what I am about to say, and until you have had the time to carefully search the Scriptures on these matters. If you cannot agree with my conclusions, I will not be offended, so long as you have been honest with the Scriptures and with yourself.
Christianity and Culture

On the surface, culture may hardly seem to be an issue in the debate between the apostles and the Judaizers in Acts 15. Indeed, culture is not the issue for the issue faced by the Jerusalem Council was the gospel.15 The implications of the decision of the Council, however, concern culture and its relationship to Christianity. There is a great deal of difference between an issue and its implications. For instance, the issue in the Supreme Court Case of Roe v. Wade was whether or not an unwed mother, pregnant due to rape, had the right to an abortion under the Constitution of the United States. The implications of that decision went much farther, however, giving any woman in the United States the right to have an abortion for virtually any reason.

In our first lesson on Acts 15 we dealt with the issue of the definition of the gospel. Renouncing the “gospel” of the Judaizers, the Jerusalem Council concluded that Gentiles were not subject to the Old Testament law as a condition for salvation. The Gentiles, like the Jews, were saved by faith alone. The law had never been able to save, but only to condemn. The principle of grace excluded law-keeping as a condition for salvation. The salvation of the Gentiles was regarded as consistent with the words of the Old Testament prophets (Acts 15:6-19).
While the Gentile converts were not required to keep the law and to adopt a Jewish lifestyle, Jewish Christians were not prohibited from living according to the law as long as they understood this did not contribute in any way to their salvation. Consequently, the Jewish Christians, including Paul, continued to observe the law, and in so doing, upheld their Jewish culture (cf. Acts 21:24). In no way was this contrary to the gospel or the decision of the Council.
The four prohibitions of verses 20 and 29 are considered a necessary obligation for the Gentiles,16 yet they fail to adequately summarize the mass of New Testament Scriptures pertaining to the godly lifestyle required of Gentile Christians. Such matters were not intended to be taught here and included in the letter sent by the Jerusalem Council, but were rather the subject of the epistles:

Quote:
This I say therefore, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, … But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth (Eph. 4:17, 20-24). 

If the four prohibitions are not conditions for salvation, and they are not the totality of God’s standards for Gentile conduct, what was the purpose of the Council in including them here? The answer to this question is the key to our message. The gospel of Jesus Christ saved both Jews and Gentiles and brought them together in a new and unique way, removing the barriers which had once existed between them (Eph. 2:11-22).

Neither Jews nor Gentiles were compelled to forsake their cultures to become Christians. Since both were to worship in harmony and unity, each must make concessions to the cultural sensitivities of the other. The four prohibitions specify the areas of Gentile conduct which would be most offensive to the scruples of their Jewish brethren.

While the cultural element is recognized by many Bible scholars, there is some disagreement as to what is specifically forbidden by these four prohibitions. The first prohibition is literally “the pollution’s of idols” (v. 20), which is called “things offered to idols” in verse 29.

Partaking of “things offered to idols” was identified as a matter of Christian liberty in 1 Corinthians 8.

However in Acts 15, these foods were forbidden to the Gentile Christians because they were an abomination to the Jewish saint and therefore they should be avoided. In later times, after Jerusalem had been sacked by the Roman army, there was less need for concern for the scruples of the Jewish Christians.
The second practice, “fornication,” may refer to various forms of sexual immorality which would therefore be wrong for Gentiles and Jews (cf. 1 Cor. 6:9-20). The expression “fornication” could also refer to the Gentile practice of marrying a close relative, which the Old Testament law forbade (cf. Lev. 18). Thirdly, the forbidden “blood” may have been the blood of animals, which the Gentiles sometimes drank, but it might also refer to cruelty, murder and violence (cf. Gen. 9:4-6). Finally, “things strangled” would most likely refer to the eating of animals which were killed by strangling, which was forbidden by the Old Testament law (cf. Lev. 17:10-14; Deut. 12:16, 23, 25).17
The changes required of Peter in order for him to preach the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10) were accepted by the Jerusalem church leaders in Acts 11. Now, in Acts 15, the Gentiles are told what they must forsake in order to have unity in fellowship and worship with Jewish believers. Given the scruples of the Jewish Christians, Gentile saints had to be sensitive to them, especially in the areas of worship, eating, and sexual morality.

The Gentiles were instructed to be careful to avoid these practices since they were the areas of greatest sensitivity for the conscientious Jew.

The Council’s decision, therefore, established a biblical precedent concerning the relationship between culture and Christianity. The Jewish culture (as prescribed by the Old Testament law) was not essential for salvation. To be saved, one needed only to believe in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Christians, whether Jew or Gentile, could continue to practice their culture in any way that was not inconsistent with biblical morality. To have fellowship with those of other cultures, each Christian must be willing to refrain from his cultural liberties which prove to be either a cause of stumbling or a hindrance to fellowship.

There is another way in which the gospel is to govern the practice of our culture. Our culture should not become a hindrance to the proclamation of the gospel. Paul’s practice is a model for every Christian:
Quote:
For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more. And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, though not being myself under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without law. To the weak, I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some. And I do all things for the sake of the gospel, that I may become a fellow-partaker of it (1 Cor. 9:19-23). 

To Paul, as to all of the apostles, the gospel was primary, and culture was secondary. Gentiles did not have to adopt the Jewish culture to be saved for the gospel did not require it. Neither Jews nor Gentiles were compelled to forsake their culture, as long as the gospel was not compromised by it. Whenever the gospel could be promoted by adapting to the culture of another, the preaching of the gospel required such change. In addition to the implications of the gospel which govern culture, culture is also an important consideration because of its impact on the gospel. 
Continued in Next Post…..
__________________
 Proverbs 18:15
15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge;
the ears of the wise seek it out.

——————————————————————————–
Last edited by Double-G (G²) : 08-20-2007 at 04:16 PM. 
         

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 08-20-2007    #109 
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   (Part 2)Something else worthy to consider regarding Hip Hop, Culture, & the Gospel

——————————————————————————–

Quote:
The decision of the Jerusalem Council was the watershed of world evangelization in the Book of Acts. Once it was determined that the Jewish culture was not an essential part of the gospel, the gospel was freed from its cultural bonds and seen to be a universal message of salvation to all men.

While this was a change that required a total reorientation on the part of Jewish Christians, it was not a change without considerable precedent, in both the Old Testament and the New Testament gospels.

When God created the nation Israel and brought them out of Egypt, He gave them the Mosaic Law in order to provide them with a standard of righteousness, with a promise of redemption, and with a prescription for a culture which would isolate them from the godless paganism of the heathen nations around them. When Israel was outside of the land, it was not possible to live completely under the law for they were not able to offer sacrifices in the prescribed places, nor were they able to isolate themselves from the cultures of their captors.
The first example of this is found in Joseph. When he realized that he would live out his life and die in Egypt, he chose to adopt much of the culture of the Egyptians. Before Joseph stood in Pharaoh’s presence, he shaved (Gen. 41:14), which was culturally very significant. A beard was highly regarded in Israel (cf. 2 Sam. 10:4-5), but in Egypt it was not.

Joseph revealed wisdom by adapting to the culture of his day, yet in a way that did not violate any biblical principle. A beard was really a matter of culture, not of creed. By taking the Egyptian’s language, their dress, and even an Egyptian wife (cf. Gen. 41:45), Joseph identified himself with the Egyptians in a way that made his ministry more acceptable, yet without any sacrifice of biblical principle.
Perhaps Daniel is the most striking example of cultural concession in the Old Testament. In Daniel 1 we find the prophet and his three Hebrew friends taken captive to Babylon. We know these men best in terms of what they refused to do. All four refused to partake of the king’s choice food and wine (Dan. 1:8-16), which seemed to be associated with idolatrous worship. (In this case, it would be consistent with the prohibitions of Acts 15:20, 29.) Daniel refused to cease praying (Dan. 6), and his three friends would not bow down to the golden image (Dan. 3).

In focusing our attention on what these four men refused to do we sometimes fail to take note of the cultural concession they were willing make. They were submissive to the king’s requirements by becoming educated in the schools of Babylon for three years, and of serving the king as advisors. These men, even in their youth, had the God-given wisdom to discern between what was culturally acceptable and what was not. They were able to faithfully serve God and to be witnesses to Him, even in a pagan land, because they could discern the elements of that culture which were an offense to God. Perhaps they were aware of the words of the prophet Jeremiah:
Quote:

Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have sent into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon, “Build houses and live in them; and plant gardens, and eat their produce. Take wives and become the fathers of sons and daughters, and take wives for your sons and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; and multiply there and do not decrease. And seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf; for in its welfare you will have welfare” (Jer. 29:4-7). 
In the Old Testament, adapting to the pagan cultures of Egypt and Babylon was the exception, not the rule. So long as there was a theocracy, the Old Testament law prescribed the culture of the people of God. Those Gentiles who desired to trust in the God of Israel placed themselves under His law, and thus became Jewish proselytes. With the coming of Christ as recorded in the Gospels, the dramatic changes recognized by the Jerusalem Council were hinted at but not fully comprehended. Our Lord’s teaching about being “salt” and “light” (Matt. 5:13-16) could only apply as the gospel penetrated the various cultures of the Gentiles.

When John recorded that our Lord “had to pass through Samaria” (John 4:4), He intended for us to look back and to understand that the Lord Jesus was foreshadowing the evangelization of the Gentiles. Mark 7 centers around the debate between Jesus and the Pharisees over their traditions. These words of Jesus to His disciples were later understood in light of the events of the Book of Acts (Acts 10, 11) and the decision of the Jerusalem Council:
Quote:
14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him ‘unclean’ by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him ‘unclean.’ “[a]

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18″Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? 19For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”)
20He went on: “What comes out of a man is what makes him ‘unclean.’ 21For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean.’ ” 
More than any other book of the Bible, Acts enables us to see the gradual unveiling of the separation of culture from Christianity. Our Lord’s statements and actions with regard to the Gentiles never registered with the disciples. Consequently, when He had risen from the grave and was about to ascend into heaven, their primary interest was in the coming of His kingdom (Acts 1:6).

Our Lord’s response not only put off the question about the coming of His kingdom, but it suggested the universal proclamation of the gospel (Acts 1:8). Undaunted, the disciples hastened to appoint a twelfth apostle, no doubt to fill the vacancy so that they would be able to sit on the twelve promised thrones (cf. Matt. 19:28).

With the filling of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost came the gift of tongues, which was a sign of the pouring out of God’s Spirit on all mankind (Acts 2:17, 21). It was not until the Jerusalem church came under intense persecution that the Christians engaged in missionary activity (Acts 8:1ff.). Peter’s vision and his commission to go to the house of Cornelius, with the resulting testimony of the Holy Spirit to the conversion of these Gentiles (Acts 10), resulted in an inquiry on the part of the leaders of the Jerusalem church (Acts 11:1ff.). Even when all had been persuaded that God had chosen to save the Gentiles (11:18), only a few noble souls from Cyprus and Cyrene preached to the Gentiles, resulting in the church at Antioch (Acts 11:19-30). From this church Barnabas and Paul were sent out as missionaries to the Gentiles (Acts 13:1-3), and upon their return, the debate over the necessity of circumcising the Gentiles arose (Acts 15:1-2).

When the gospel was defined as distinct from any obligation upon Gentile converts to keep the law, and when the issue of culture was seen as subordinate to the gospel, the evangelization of the Gentile world became predominate as recorded in the remainder of the Book of Acts. The book, which begins with a Jewish church, thus ends with Paul’s explanation of the Jews’ rejection of the gospel and the salvation of the Gentiles (Acts 28:24-29)…….
Culture is important because of its relationship to the gospel of Jesus Christ. I pray that you will take this matter seriously, for the sake of the gospel.

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1343 
Though the author said MUCH MORE on the issue of CULTURE, If anyone is interested in further information on the article, the link is included and one can check it out for themselves……..but I thought it had MANY INSIGHTFUL things on the subject that have not been adressed yet regarding the issue of the culture of HIP HIOP………and should one check out the link, one will be able to discover the rest of what the author says on the subject of Christianity and Culture and perhaps have some better insight as to has to what to make of the issue of “HIP HOP” and whether or not it can be HOLY.

Hope it aids the discussion
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 08-20-2007    #110 
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——————————————————————————–

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkll4ever 
Don’t tell me you agree with this logic.

It’s all about influence. Being enticed. Being made to commit evil.

God understands influence. Or else why would He instruct the children of Israel to destroy everything.

Deu 11:16Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

1Ki 11:2Of the nations [concerning] which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: [for] surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.

Some thing overt and some covert in their influence. But given enough exposure you will start to run the new program acquired by all the stuff you let into your mind.

What do think meant when He stated He was the word? Words influence, sounds influence. Our five senses are gates of influence. What you let in them will influence you for evil or good.

I’ll get back to you about that, Brah……but to let you know, I do agree with a good bit of it, for anyone who says “I just listen to the beats” or that musical tones do not affect/influence them for good or bad may be misguided. Even considering how some music that’s JAZZ and lacks lyrics but IMMEDIATELY PLACES someone in a sensual mood or another one at some point, depending on what the tone is, should give some sort of evidence that music is NEVER JUST MUSIC…..and the issue of considering INFLUENCE when it comes to serving the Lord is NOT NEW or UNBIBLICAL (which is something I appreciate G.Craig Lewis for bringing up in His teachings, www.exministries.com)
Will share more later…..and again, thanks for bringing the topic up.
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 08-21-2007    #111 
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  Quote:
Yepe. I know and knew this. 

You do? Then isn’t that being intellectually dishonest; if you know the logical fallacy you are commiting, and yet don’t do anything about it?
Quote:
And that is how you responded everytime. Notice you only address the parts of my statement that provide a platform for you to launch into your soap box.
 

First of all, I would like to ask you to please not insult me during this “discussion.” To be honest, I’m pretty busy, and don’t want to waste my time being insulted.

Secondly, I apologize for not responding to every single word that you say… However, a lot of the time, you only respond to some of what I say… This is what I mean when I say you’re being hypocritical.
Quote:
You never address the whether you only saw my comments as ridiculous. If I miss my guess, when you turned on your PC and saw that I hold commented, you said under your breath something like, “let me see what this fool/nigga is talking about now.” IF not this strong, something close. When you open my comments, you already had a soap box of words to wash my mouth out with your soap. Hopefully you understand the analogy. If the truth be known you and all your crowd reading alone and supporters all did the same thing, probably sent IMs to each other, discuss my perspective and whatever. In other words, birds of a feather just flocked together and run shotgun for each other.
 

Why do you insult me like this? This is exactly what I’m talking about…

First of all, you accuse me. You falsely accuse me based on your prejudices against me. You make me out to be some close-minded idiot who doesn’t know anything… Why do you do this, and supposedly in the name of Christ?

I can’t believe the prejudice you demonstrated in this last paragraph of yours… I don’t know if I’ve ever seen this much insulting and prejudice from a Christian here on CARM. Especially when you said that I’d say, “….nigga….”. And that is exactly what I’m talking about. You associate that with the hip-hop culture, and you assume I talk like that, because of the fact that I listen to hip-hop…

I honestly don’t know what I’ve done to offend you so much… Can you please tell me, because I obviously did something to make you hate (or at least strongly dislike me).
Quote:
You did not directly admit it, but you know I’m telling you the absolute truth. People are listening to “christian hip-hop” and getting dopped up, freaked out, sex up, in the same fashion as secular hip-hop.
 

I suppose some people… But what about the people that are changed (positively).
Quote:
Here’s a test. Doing the next youth jam. Play some Crossment or KJ52 or T-Done or DaTruth. And watch what happens. I think already know. And even you will probably begin to pop your hips and “toe ya hand in de air.”
 

Wouldn’t you agree that there’s a huge difference between booties being shakin’, and hands being “toen in da air”? (with this, you have once again shown your prejudice… Believe it or not, I actually don’t talk like that…)

Personally, I’ve never seen booties being shakin’ for a Cross Movement, Da’ T.R.U.T.H. etc etc show. Although I will say this: if there is in fact bootie shakin’, it needs to be stopped, and I acknowledge that.
Quote:
Then play a traditional version of the Hymn “Amazing Grace.” I garauntee it that the booty shaken will stop.
 

If someone used traditional hymn music to get across a worldly message that encouraged drugs, sex, lust, money, etc, would it be wrong?
Quote:
Sir, I must admit that you are extremely good at dodging truth. Hypocritical. I asking you to open your eyes and see the damned of the youth generation and all you can say is that I being hypocritical. Who told you throw this line out as if it had any slight of truth? 

Nobody. And it’s not all I have to say… But really think about it… You accuse me of being close-minded (which, I acknowledge, I sometimes am, as we all are) and yet at the same time you demonstrate extreme close-mindedness.
Quote:
You obviously do not know what hypocritical mean. It simply means in the greek, to put on an act or show. 

I know what hypocritical means…
Quote:
Now, how many christian hip-hip shows have you been to or acts have you seen.
 

Actually, none, to be honest
Quote:
As I think you once stated, “get your head out of the sand.” 

…When, exactly?…
Quote:
1 of 100 kids being effected for good and the other 99 are just shaken dair grove thang by christian hip-hop are ridiculous statistics. But you know better than what you and I both see.
 

I don’t think that statistic is accurate, but let’s say it is… Isn’t it worth leading that one percent to Christ?
Quote:
Nope you’re not a pain in the butt. And don’t compliment yourself by thinking you have anything to say that offends me. Remember I was a youth pastor. I dealt with your type all the time. You are just typical of this generation of music (christianized bread youth. My goal in even given you this much was because even though I do not work directly with youth anymore, I believe they have great potential. The greatest problem you and most youth have is that you think adults are your enemies. You may not say it, but you treat them this way in almost every action. 

How so?… How do you know?… Have you been spying on me (lol )
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 08-21-2007    #112 
kkll4ever
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You do? Then isn’t that being intellectually dishonest; if you know the logical fallacy you are commiting, and yet don’t do anything about it? 

I’m trying to take you beyond this to think by observation instead of by prejudice. You have chosen prejudice and will not address why is the music causing most to stay in sin and use the music to practice their sin. I’m sorry if I keep putting this in terms that are not easily from your perspective understood. And they will remain misunderstood until you face reality people are yet dying in sin listening to what you say nothing is wrong with it.
Quote:
Secondly, I apologize for not responding to every single word that you say… However, a lot of the time, you only respond to some of what I say… This is what I mean when I say you’re being hypocritical. 

I don’t mind you responding to what you want to respond to. But when I bring something back up that you did not respond to, you again go into saying dodging statements. I’ll show you from your response above.

I stated:
You never address the whether you only saw my comments as ridiculous. If I miss my guess, when you turned on your PC and saw that I hold commented, you said under your breath something like, “let me see what this fool/nigga is talking about now.” IF not this strong, something close. When you open my comments, you already had a soap box of words to wash my mouth out with your soap. Hopefully you understand the analogy. If the truth be known you and all your crowd reading alone and supporters all did the same thing, probably sent IMs to each other, discuss my perspective and whatever. In other words, birds of a feather just flocked together and run shotgun for each other.

You replied:
Why do you insult me like this? This is exactly what I’m talking about…

First of all, you accuse me. You falsely accuse me based on your prejudices against me. You make me out to be some close-minded idiot who doesn’t know anything… Why do you do this, and supposedly in the name of Christ?

I can’t believe the prejudice you demonstrated in this last paragraph of yours… I don’t know if I’ve ever seen this much insulting and prejudice from a Christian here on CARM. Especially when you said that I’d say, “….nigga….”. And that is exactly what I’m talking about. You associate that with the hip-hop culture, and you assume I talk like that, because of the fact that I listen to hip-hop…

I honestly don’t know what I’ve done to offend you so much… Can you please tell me, because I obviously did something to make you hate (or at least strongly dislike me).
End reply.

You see you’re doing the classic dodge and jab. It was not me that every called your comments ridiculous. It was not me who in the initial conversation made any accussations, but simply put the data for consideration as to why the youth and many are unchanged, eventhough we have the christianized version of the music of their culture.

Oh, by the way, I don’t really think you are a high schooler.
Quote:
I suppose some people… But what about the people that are changed (positively). 

This is refusal I’m talking about. You admit there are problems in the first half of the sentence or should I say “half admit” and then toss it out by the second half of the sentence. All my comments have been directed at the first have and what we together can do about it. You have it interpeted my wanting to look at the first half as wanting to throw out rap. I never said that. I did say calling it hip-hop is a problem. You thought this to be ridiculous. Right? Isn’t this your perspective of what I presented?

You may use this dodge and jab effectively on others, but not here.

This is my conclusion. You admit there is a problem, but are not willing or see the need to do anything about it. If this is your choice. It’s all to typical these days and the reason why the church is no different than the world.
Quote:
Wouldn’t you agree that there’s a huge difference between booties being shakin’, and hands being “toen in da air”? (with this, you have once again shown your prejudice… Believe it or not, I actually don’t talk like that…) 

Some do them concurrently. You may not talk like that, but you do know that this does not even scratch the surface of the type of language Christian youth are using. I get the impression most youth really think adults are out of touch. Don’t know what going on. It’s the generation gap nonsense. In actuality, part of the reason you are the way you are is because adult don’t know how to be adults, but are more insteresting in being friends.

You keep asking where you have offended me, where in truth you are atypical of thoughts and ways of the young. Argue their position and call opposers ridiculous.

This is close minded.
Quote:
If someone used traditional hymn music to get across a worldly message that encouraged drugs, sex, lust, money, etc, would it be wrong? 

Here you are again. Seeing me as the enemy. Thanks for that.

But to answer your question with another questions. Have you ever seen or heard of such? I’ve never seen it. Which strengthens the point. Hymns are universally understood as being religious. Worship music is universally understood as being a style of music used to worship.

But when it comes to hip-hop, you must tell of the type and emphasize the type. Because universally hip-hop is a worldly musical style at its very core.

So provide a hymn that is called a hymn and promotes the sins as you referenced.
Quote:
Nobody. And it’s not all I have to say… But really think about it… You accuse me of being close-minded (which, I acknowledge, I sometimes am, as we all are) and yet at the same time you demonstrate extreme close-mindedness. 

You obviously do not know what close mind mean. Let me help you. I use to argue your point. So I know your point. Now I argue that I use to argue has holes in it. Lets look for ways to deal with the holes.

So let’s see. I know and can argue your argument and know and can argue my argument and provide reasons why both are valid depending on the context of the discussion.

But as I have come to understand what you are arguing, you can only present only your side, see there is a problem and then see my side as ridiculous. Now, who is being closed minded?
Quote:
I don’t think that statistic is accurate, but let’s say it is… Isn’t it worth leading that one percent to Christ? 

Yes and no. Yes, if you have not employed a method that is not distracting to the message of the gospel. No, if you have employed a method that is not distracting to the message of the gospel. If you could have won 10-20 without the method, then the method should be examined.

I’ve notice a downward trend with christian hip-hop being less and less effective in bringing people to Christ and an even less trend of Christian hip-hop keeping them saved.
Quote:
How so?… How do you know?… Have you been spying on me (lol ) 

This is why I said earlier, I don’t think you are a highschooler.

I really don’t think we have anythig more to talk about.

——————————————————————————–
Last edited by kkll4ever : 08-21-2007 at 10:53 AM. 
         

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 08-23-2007    #113 
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  Quote:
I really don’t think we have anythig more to talk about. 

I agree… It seems like we’re just going to have to agree to disagree.

Sorry, but I’m just curious, why do you say that you don’t think I’m a highschooler?

I would just like to say that even though we disagree on this issue, I still consider you my brother in Christ… I know that we both may have offended eachother (I think we both got a little too caught up in the debate), however it’s important that as believers we stick together. God bless you man, Peace.
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 08-23-2007    #114 
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  Quote:
Sorry, but I’m just curious, why do you say that you don’t think I’m a highschooler? 

Your arguments are far to mature.

And I as well have no reason to not consider you a brother in Christ.

We can check out some of our other posts and depending on the subject, we may find we agree and speak complimentary.

But, I will say that you have offended me in at least one way. BY YOU KEEP SAYING THAT YOU OFFENDED ME, EVENTHOUGH I TOLD YOU, YOU HAVE NOT.

Take Care and I’ll you on other threads.

Be in Prayer.
         

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 08-23-2007    #115 
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by RAIDERJO76 
Can hip-hop be holy?

Ever looked up lyrics of popular rappers? If you think Manson or someone is bad, rap is so much worse.

Anyways, its not music. Can it be holy? Dont think so. Can it be non offensice, yes
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 08-24-2007    #116 
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  I didn’t say Scripture says nothing about music. I said it says nothing concerning particular musical styles.
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 08-24-2007    #117 
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  Well…now that just really says nothing about form at all does it?
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 08-24-2007    #118 
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  For the sake of our discussion, is there a difference? But if you insist, I stand corrected that you said style and not just music.
         

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 08-24-2007    #119 
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  You ask me to define hymn.

OK, you lost me. How do you ThePheonix define form?
         

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 08-24-2007    #120 
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  Yes, there is a difference. Remember what you are attempting to prove is that style equals intent, which is what I aim to disprove. I agree that Scripture would have us abstain from everything with evil intent.
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  Form in music consists of beat (rhythm), melody, speed, length, and all other things concerning how the music impacts the particles of air where it is played.

None of that is discussed in Scripture specifically. What IS discussed is the purpose of the music: to praise God. This intent can only be defined by the performer of said music, not the listener.
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 08-24-2007    #122 
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  I think we are getting somewhere. Now what is the original intent of hip-hop and can we by Christianizing it remove the original intent?

Before you answer, consider all we have talked about, in particularly the statistics. What is causing many to make no changes at all?
         

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 08-24-2007    #123 
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   Some actual video clips to consider in the discussion……

——————————————————————————–

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePheonix 
Form in music consists of beat (rhythm), melody, speed, length, and all other things concerning how the music impacts the particles of air where it is played.

None of that is discussed in Scripture specifically. What IS discussed is the purpose of the music: to praise God. This intent can only be defined by the performer of said music, not the listener.

If interested, here’s something that should aid the discussion. It’s from some music videos from one paticular Holy Hip Hop group named “Grits”….and though they don’t necessarily represent everyone’s mentality or style affiliated with HOLY HIP HOP , based on melody/style, I’d be curious as to what you felt the intent of the music was for:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEklIh4u0Qw
Also, regarding the discussion, here’s a clip from a Holy Hip Hopper named “Da Truth”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0RFYxGdftA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtVAk…elated&search=

What feel did you get from seeing him? Did you feel he had good intent or bad? To praise God or something else? And moreover, even though both were using beats/rhythms you’d hear in Hip Hop, did they both make you feel the same or did they evoke 2 different mentalities/moods in hearing them?
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 08-24-2007    #124 
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——————————————————————————–

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage5 
I meant to say that we should NOT imitate the world’s styles. Certain things are reasonable, but certain things aren’t. You have to draw the line somewhere.
Perhaps I missed it in the discussion, but what paticular styles (as in dress & terminology) connected to the Hip Hop Culture are reasonable? Are there any at all? I know of many churches which incorporate many elements of Hip Hop culture, like murals or breakdancing and various other things, into their church sercives and they have served to be a positive influence within the community & to help those on the streets not to live for them (http://www.vft.ag.org/enrichment/fall04.cfm, as an example of a church communicating “The Gospel in Inner-City Context”)

And though I don’t believe that every aspect of Hip Hop culture is godly or should be imitated (i.e. dressing immodestly, vulgarity, rebellion and focusing on self-exaltation), I do believe that there are many aspects of the culture that can be used in reaching/evangelizing to the youth who identify with it……just as it is whenever one encounters any culture not redeemed by the Gospel of Christ but has valid things in it that can serve as common ground/platforms to witness/proclaim the truth, as Paul did when in Athens and often times with Gentiles (Acts 17:16-34…..and if interested, go to http://www.cyfm.net/article.php?arti…ng_em_out.html for some practical examples of this when interacting with people in Hip Hop Culture, though there are many things within it that I and some against HIP HOP may disagree with and will discuss later if anyone is interested)
But that’s just me….
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 08-24-2007    #125 
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  Quote:
Your arguments are far to mature.
 

What do you mean? I’m just thinking. I admit, I’m probably better at this kind of thing than most other people my age, but that’s because this (apologetics, etc) is what I like to do. And I’ve gotten used to it… But how does that mean that I’m not in highschool? There are plenty of people my age with more mature arguments and thinking than me.
Quote:
And I as well have no reason to not consider you a brother in Christ.
 

… Why not?
Quote:
But, I will say that you have offended me in at least one way. BY YOU KEEP SAYING THAT YOU OFFENDED ME, EVENTHOUGH I TOLD YOU, YOU HAVE NOT.
 

Okay, do you want to know why I have constantly been thinking that you are offended? It’s because of the way that you talk down to me. I know that I’m not always as respectful as I should be, and I acknowledge that, but even when I’m kind to you and say “God bless”, “Peace”, etc etc you still treat me like garbage, and talk down to me as if I’m an idiot. Anway, THAT is why I’m always asking you what I did to offend you.
Quote:
Be in Prayer. 

Thanks… You too, Peace.
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How many times do we say “I’m tired, I don’t feel like reading”? Aren’t you glad that God will never say “I’m tired, I don’t feel like dealing with you today”? 
         

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 08-25-2007    #126 
kkll4ever
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  I don’t recall anyone every agreeing that hip-hop is a culture. I though it was only a style of music. When I spoke of the culture, I got my hands slapped.

Advice. Be sure to keep your hands in your pockets.
         

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 08-25-2007    #127 
Eric Landstrom
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by RAIDERJO76 
Can hip-hop be holy?

I’m listening to “Angels” off of the compilation album The Wages of Syntax which is completely underground hip-hop/rap and has an evangelical nature to the songs. “Angels” is my favorite song and begins from the perspective of a street evangelist who knows he is fighting amid a cosmic battle through time who promises those who believe will be like the angels.

Here are the beginning lyrics:

So we meet again but tonight I brought my friend and he’s got a burning fire that will terrify your fiends.

You can make amends for the sinning on the fence, you can light the fire like a burning incense.

You can wear the wings and swing the crimson sword and soar through heavenly wars all in one accord.

or you can kill the demons Bobillatta

or take the kingdom God has promised save-ya

Or take the force of war and all that it brings and I promise my King to take you under my wing.
Then it gets cool if you’re into hip-hop. The song is about contrasts between good and evil, choosing this day whom you will serve, and going on to make disciples that continue the good fight. In the middle of the song, a new voice, the new convert, starts singing, then a chorus of saints looking from heaven comes in singing. The song finishes with a lone angel scanning the land look for the next good fight. Very clever.
__________________

Oh Lord, we ask that we would become wise in your counsel. And if through folly we should consider ourselves wise and become fools, then we ask that you send to us ministering spirits who speak of your majesty and teach us in humility, for it is through their humility that we shall recognize that they are your servants.

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Last edited by Eric Landstrom : 08-25-2007 at 04:24 AM. 
         

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 08-30-2007    #128 
kkll4ever
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  Has anyone read this.

http://www.thelight1039.com/messageb…557&tid=385419
         

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 09-01-2007    #129 
Swish727
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by RAIDERJO76 
Can hip-hop be holy?

It’s important to not get caught up in the style of music, but in the message. I am more inclined to listen to a group from a style of music that I do not particularly care for if the lyrics are good. However, if there are questionable lyrics in a preferred style of music, I tend to avoid that particular group.

Okay, reading over that again, I see that it is a little confusing. Let me clarify with an example. I tend to listen to more alternative rock. Generally speaking, I’ll listen to Christian alternative rock (Skillet, Seventh Day Slumber, etc.), but I will occasionally listen to other bands in the secular realm that play the same style of music. I have liked what I have heard from Linkin Park, and the lyrics (without in-depth examination) do not appear to be particularly offensive, so I don’t mind listening to them either. However, a group like Nickleback, while I like the style of music, I will not listen to because of questionable lyrics.

Clear as mud? 
         

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 09-02-2007    #130 
IMPAX
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  Quote:
Originally Posted by RAIDERJO76 
Can hip-hop be holy?

Well it can’t be holy, but it can be as good as any other Christian music from hymnals to praise. Music is music, if it brings glory to God then it can be considered good.
         

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 09-05-2007    #131 
RAIDERJO76
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  amen
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How many times do we say “I’m tired, I don’t feel like reading”? Aren’t you glad that God will never say “I’m tired, I don’t feel like dealing with you today”? 
 

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One Response to “For all Youth Ministers to hear (Part 2): Clarifications…..”

  1. Seo said

    Seo…

    […]For all Youth Ministers to hear (Part 2): Clarifications….. « EMISSARY^7 (G²)[…]…

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