• Young Evangelicals not a lock for Republicans.

The dreadlocked Christian activist from Philadelphia and his team parked a black school bus around the back. The hand-painted gold letters on the side read “Jesus for President.”

Claiborne is touring the country, packing churches and community centers, in support of the book he and Chris Haw co-authored, “Jesus for President.”

“This whole project is about the political imagination of what it means to follow after Jesus,” Claiborne said. “The language of Jesus as Lord and savior is just as radical as it would be to say ‘Jesus as our commander in chief’ today.”

Young evangelicals represent an important swing-voting bloc. They’re not a lock for Republicans as their parents were. Their feet are firmly planted on issues dear to both parties. Traditional family values are, as they have been in the past, an important issue.

But these voters say views on abortion and homosexuality won’t define them in November. The environment and social justice are moving to the forefront of their discussions.

About 26 percent of the United States identifies itself as evangelical Christians in the Protestant tradition, according to the latest U.S. Religious Landscape study by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. In 2004, more than 75 percent of evangelicals cast their vote for George W. Bush.

“They delivered for him in some key states, like Ohio, without which he could not have won,” said CNN’s Bill Schneider, senior political analyst. “It was the rallying of the evangelical base that Karl Rove developed as a strategy, maximizing turnout among your base voters, not worrying about independents or swing voters.”
But polls have shown that evangelicals as a whole, following national trends, are disaffected with Republican leadership and increasingly up for grabs.

Thursday was the fifth night of the tour and it has already seen hundreds show up in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and Indianapolis, Indiana.

It was a hot, muggy June day in Pittsburgh. About 250 people came through the doors to find there was no air conditioning in the old church-turned-community center. They ran out of chairs so people took to the floors and leaned against the walls.
There were voters from across the board: Republicans, Democrats and independents. Most were young, Christian by background, evangelical in theology, and they say they’re hungry for something more than partisan politics.

Steph Walker and Amanda Widing had to settle for seats in the back.

“I would say that social justice and issues like that have definitely arisen as an important part of my faith and, because of that, it affects how I vote and think of those things definitely,” said 21-year-old Walker.

She grew up in a Republican household but has switched parties and will vote for Sen. Barack Obama in November.
Widing, 20, is a registered Republican but unsure who she’ll vote for.
“There are certain issues where I identify more with Republicans and other issues where I identify more with Democrats, so I really am completely undecided at this point,” she said.

Eric Sapp is a founding member of the Eleison group focused on getting people of faith out to the polls for Democrats. He sees younger evangelicals as prime targets to swing.

“These voters are starting to become independent swing voters instead of a lock for either party,” Sapp said. “For Democrats, also, it’s a successful place because when a group had been voting four out of five Republican and they start becoming a swing constituency that also has significant electoral implications.”

Back on stage Claiborne takes the crowd through a multimedia presentation.

“With the respectability and the power of the church comes the temptation to prostitute our identity for every political agenda.”

Controversially, he quotes Harry S. Truman and Adolph Hitler, saying each used Christianity to support their ideologies.

The speech is fiery at times, pensive at others. It emphasizes caring for the poor and the downtrodden. He talks about war and the environment. He also talks about how Jesus stood up to the Roman Empire, a message he believes is relevant to the United States now. “For many of us, Caesar has colonized our imagination, our landscape and our ideology,” he says while a picture of Mount Rushmore flashes behind him. On the screen “Vandalism” pops up in black letters.

Trading lines back and forth from a script with Haw, they save the most wrath for Christians who they say have missed the point of the cross.”We’ve profaned the blood at the foot of the cross and turned it into Kool-Aid and marketed it all over the world. We’ll make an art and a business out of taking the Lord’s name in vain,” Claiborne says as images of Christ on the cross and the American flag flash behind him.

They endorse no candidate and make no effort to sway the voters for one party or another.

After the speech in an interview with CNN, Claiborne said, “This is not about going left or right, this is about going deeper and trying to understand together. Rather than endorse candidates, we ask them to endorse what is at the heart of Jesus and that is the poor or the peacemakers and when we see that then we’ll get behind them.”Claiborne says the movement of younger evangelicals is growing and looking at the Bible in more holistic terms. He is quick to say the call of Christ has more to do with how people live their lives on November 3 and 5 than how they vote on November 4.

Also, If interested, found an interview by Claiborne on the issue of politics/religion that really intrigued me when I listened to it awhile back….as found here in Shane Claiborne: Jesus For President: CCDA 2007 Audio—as the audio dealt with the question of whether or not we’re political…& how are we political…and that God is forming a peculiar people & set apart from the nations, who are the embodiment of a political alternative to empires, and their markets and militaries.

Titus 3/ Titus 3

Doing What is Good

1Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men.

Godbless, everyone..

Was just writing to ask for prayer from everyone, as there are some things the Lord has been calling to really fast/pray on for awhile and I need to obey his voice. It’s been a struggle, but due to some intriguing events (such as 4 drunks coming to repentance last night after my friend and I drove them home and preached the Gospel by the POWER of GOD—SHANDA!!!!!), I realize that I need to really run after the Lord on some things to get some factors clarified (undisclosed at the moment).

      So, for anyone who seriously enjoys this blog, If everyone  would please send up a shout-out to God for me, I’d appreciate it. Again, I don’t know how long I’ll be gone. Could be for a week, though I’m guessing it’s gonna be for awhile—as posting on these forums is one of my greatest habits/joys (interacting with everyone/learning) but something that I feel I need to get away from and that God is challenging me on. Either way, your prayers are supported—-and prayerfully, in those areas where you’ve been challenged, may the Lord show himself to you as well.

On a bit of a different subject, Recent events have reminded me of how recently, I came back from attending a trip to a Conference called “The CALL” (THE CALL: Should Others Call to it or should it be Called Off? ) with individuals such as Lou Engle, Will Ford, and others for intercessory prayer for the nation and revival in America again. Out of all of the conferences I’ve been to, this was one of the most impacting trips by far. Though the movement’s CHARISMATIC in nature, what they’re doing in principle seems applicable for all………and it wasn’t because of “how entertaining it was” or “flashy”

It was because from 9 am in the morning till 10 pm at night, all that took place was fasting/prayer for the nation with millions of other individuals…….and they were praying and fasting on issues such as compromise/lack of zeal for the truth that often takes place in the church or letting the world influence us more than we realize.

It served to remind me how often it seems that our focus on  many boards/others are so focused on theology/discussion and yet in practical living, there often isn’t consistency….

Pray that what I’m saying is making sense. Some demons/forces we battle spiritually truly came come on by nothing else but PRAYER AND FASTING, like Jesus said (even when it seems there’s success prior with other means—like it was with the disciples who couldn’t cast out a demon).

Daniel 9:3
So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.
Daniel 9:2-4 (in Context) Daniel 9 (Whole Chapter

As anyone seriously investigating my blog will quickly find out, I’m very much into things such as SOCIAL ACTION and recognizing the CALL THAT GOD HAS PLACED UPON THOSE CLAIMING THE NAME OF CHRIST TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE IN DOING IT—-and there are many other ministries that feel the same. One of them is entitled http://www.heavensfamily.org/  , which is very balanced, seeing that they’re not only for PREACHING/TEACHING the GOSPEL but the PRACTICAL ASPECTS OF LOVE/LIVING IT OUT AS LIVES TRANSFORMED BY THE GOSPEL AS WELL. 

  However, in researching all over the web, one of the main websites I love to visit brought up  another ministry that struck me to the core. The name of the ministry is called Covenant Mercies (and their blog, http://newattitude.org/articles/mercy_to_the_orphan)— in connection with NEW ATTITUDE (with Joshua Harris and C.J Mahanney) and other ministries of that kind. 

And this ministry was set up under the basis of seeking to be in line with the commands throughout the Bible to help the poor, the widows and the orphans.

For a basic description of the ministry from the website:

Covenant Mercies is a gospel-centered nonprofit organization established for the purpose of serving the poor, the orphan, the widow, and others facing severe adversity in its own Pennsylvania community and beyond. Please click the links to the left to learn more about the initiatives being undertaken through Covenant Mercies.

In His grace, God has been exceedingly merciful to us. Our Savior did not sit idly by while the world agonized in the ravages of sin, but in compassion He came and suffered with us. As His visible expression in the earth today, it is our joy to minister the compassion of our Lord Jesus to those around us who are in need. We invite your prayers for Covenant Mercies as we seek to walk in the good works He has prepared in advance for us to do (Eph. 2:10), to the praise of His glorious grace.

 
For a video of their ministry firsthand (

). As if this wasn’t enough to be dumbfounded by, I was so taken aback by a branch of their ministry entitled Orphans Initiatives. What this basically is is an Orphan Sponsorship Program that works hand in hand with local churches in Uganda and Zambia to help the many orphans there. For a basic description

James 1:27 says, “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction…” Covenant Mercies is committed to seeing this biblical mandate lived out practically in the context of the local church. Through our Orphan Sponsorship Program, we work with local churches in Uganda and Zambia to facilitate care for hundreds of children by means of their extended families. Where no extended family is available, we construct orphans’ homes where the children can be raised in a normal family environment, integrated into the life of the local church and endowed not only with daily sustenance, but also with biblical instruction and a Christian upbringing.

It is our conviction that in certain cases, the best and most complete way to care for an orphaned child is to make him an orphan no longer through adoption. Covenant Mercies has worked with branches of the Mexican government to assist in matching orphaned children with loving adoptive families, and we hope to expand our adoption program to serve children in other nations as well, as doors are opened. Covenant Mercies’ vision for ministry to orphans includes:

* Enabling extended families of orphans to provide effective care through our Orphan Sponsorship Program
* Building orphans’ homes in cooperation with local churches in other nations
* Providing adoptive homes for orphaned children
* Providing Adoption Assistance grants for qualified families through our Orphans Fund

 

 

 

 

 Also, for anyone interested, here’s an interview from the director of the ministry on the importance of the issue:

Today we’re introducing you to Covenant Mercies, a gospel-centered nonprofit organization serving the poor, the orphan, the widow, and others facing severe adversity. Doug Hayes blogs regularly for Na and is the executive director of Covenant Mercies. We love Doug’s understanding of how the gospel informs social action.

Here, Doug Hayes shares a simple story of how Covenant Mercies cared for a boy named Onyango…
_______

One of the things I love most about my role as director of Covenant Mercies is the unique vantage point I enjoy, from which I can clearly see the connection between our donors’ generosity and the profound impact it is having on the ground where we’re working I love to point out what I see from this bird’s eye view, because I realize that few people have the opportunity to observe the impact of their giving as clearly as I’m able to see it.

Here’s an example of what I’m referring to… As a regular visitor to Uganda over the past five years, I have been stunned to learn just how many of my Ugandan friends have lost children due to disease and other causes. There are many things that separate my typical Western experience from their typical “developing world” experience, but none has been more personally jarring to me than this one. When I hear of a child dying, it is a shock to my system; a rare and unimaginable grief that I pray I’ll never know firsthand. For our Ugandan friends, on the other hand, this indescribable sadness is a common reality of life.

A few years ago, as this disparity of experience was becoming clear to me, I asked one of our Ugandan leaders to estimate the percentage of families living in that region who would have experienced the death of a child after childbirth. I was not prepared for his answer: “Over 80%,” he said. Thinking this could not possibly be accurate, I continued my inquiry, asking the same question to another of our leaders without informing him of the data I had already collected. “More than 90%,” he said. Could this really be true? Sadly, though my ensuing survey was admittedly unscientific, it seems that the death of a child is indeed a trauma experienced by the great majority of families in this region of Uganda.

Understanding this background provides a greater degree of appreciation for the story of a young boy named Onyango. In October 2003, I happened to be in Uganda when our indigenous director learned of this little boy and his plight. Both of Onyango’s parents had died the year before, leaving him in the care of his uncle who was alleged to be an alcoholic. When we went to see Onyango, the lack of adequate care was apparent from his severely malnourished condition. At that time, he could do no more than sit on a mat with a glazed look in his eyes. I will never forget the way he gobbled up some biscuits we had hurriedly purchased on our way, snatching them with his left hand as if he had not eaten in weeks. He used his left hand because the entire right side of his body was paralyzed, a disability that may have resulted from lack of proper nutrition combined with chronic, untreated malaria.

Upon ascertaining Onyango’s need, our staff began to search immediately for another extended family member who could take him in. After learning of an aunt who lived nearby, they quickly convinced her to begin looking after her nephew. We took Onyango to the medical clinic that day for emergency treatment, and thereafter he steadily recovered. Improved nutrition provided through the generosity of his sponsor, combined with the love and care he now receives as a member of one of our children’s home families (Onyango was not able to remain permanently with his aunt), have resulted in dramatic changes in this little boy’s life.

When I went to visit Onyango the following year, it was difficult to believe I was looking at the same little boy. Though full strength and mobility had not yet returned to the right side of his body (and still haven’t to this day), he was able to walk and he had regained some movement in his right arm. But that’s not what affected me most when I saw him; it was his eyes that told the greatest story. As the photo above attests, this is a little boy who now has hope and a reason to smile! Today, Onyango is known for his love of singing, and he’s typically the first one dancing – gimpy leg and all – on Sunday morning at church (see Onyango dancing here).

Each time I see Onyango today – especially when he’s dancing – I’m reminded in so many ways of the grace of God. If not for the eagerness of God’s people on one side of the world to excel in the grace of giving, combined with the eagerness of His people on the other side of the world to look after orphans and widows in their own community, Onyango would almost certainly have become another nameless piece of a tragic child mortality statistic. But because of the operation of God’s grace in the hearts of Christians both there and here, today we have a little boy whose mourning has been turned into dancing.

To you, O LORD, I cry, and to the Lord I plead for mercy: “What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness? Hear, O LORD, and be merciful to me! O LORD, be my helper!” You have turned for me my mourning into dancing; you have loosed my sackcloth and clothed me with gladness, that my glory may sing your praise and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks to you forever! (Psalm 30:8-12)

Dance on, Onyango, and tell of His faithfulness!

 

And to all that, I say “Amen…and AMEN….”. I SERIOUSLY encourage EVERYONE TO PLEASE GET INVOLVED WITH THIS MINISTRY. For truly, it’s one of the greatest things I’ve heard of to date…..and an answer to prayer. So often it seems that much of the church, in an effort to combat things such as false teachings/immoralities of many kinds, have forgotten about the issues of PRACTICAL holiness and living for the Lord.  And on the aformentioned things, you could do all of that and still be LOST if love was not involved in it.

If anyone else is wanting to have more info on the issue regarding ministries like those dealing with compassion/mercy issues, this other thread was great place to start that dealt with it greatly ( #113

AIDS: Is there any way to PRACTICALLY END THE DEFICIENCY in DEALING WITH THE PROBLEM? ,

LOCK-UP: How does one do Missional Ministry Among Kats doing 25yrs to LIFE?

(#100 , #101 ). On the issue of abortion, it’s amazing seeing how many churhes will rightfully preach against it…and yet they’ll end there. ANd they seem to forget that it was often due to feeling as if they couldn’t take care of the child ALONE or that any other options were available that they decided to abort anyhow. The church needs to rise up again and remember that this is what we were called to do, as I truly believe that ADOPTION is the KEY TO ENDING ABORTION (or at least, curttailing it SIGNIFICANTLY). America

        This reminds me of some of the ministries I ran into during my time earlier this year at an event entitled the CALL (www.thecall.com, THE CALL: Should Others Call to it or should it be Called Off?–the latter one being from CARM and where you’ll have to register, for free, in order to view completely  ), where there was a heavy focus on things such as this and the same kind of sentiments were repeated. And it was really cool to see that, for it seemed that the concept of adoption was the missing factor in what it means to take care of widows and orphans. And regarding the conference, Personally, I thought it was very powerful as people were praying (and hearing the testimonies of people on the issue—one being how some were praying outside of an Abortion Clinic with “tape over their mouths” and asking the Lord to shut it down/bring JUSTICE and eventually it did through their efforts….http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAKU9smGC_U…and many other interesting things besides that).  Their website can be found here, 

these people had the zeal for God to take a public stand and cried out to God to change the place. I guess like Paul being in Athens and noting the horrendous idolatory everywhere, and being grieved in his spirit. However, to be clear, Paul did not stand outside the temples and pray for God to shut them down. And there was gross immorality going on in them. But he reasoned with men and preached the gospel to them. When he speaks to the Corinthians, one of the loveliest things he says after listing various kinds of immoralities is “and such were some of you”, which is a great encouragement that people can and do change by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the gospel. Paul’s preaching at one point upset the silversmiths (the idol makers) of the city, because many were turning away from idols. There is no mention that he took a group of people to pray outside the idol makers convention, and pray against it, but it was through the preaching of the gospel, that people were turning away from idols. All that to say, doesn’t mean that the people standing outside the Abortion Clinic didn’t preach the Gospel nor does it mean that what they did was insignificant either—–especially seeing that one of their greatest passions is ADOPTION being the key to dealing with abortion.

, what is it that the Church has been called to do? Is it not to be involved in the issues of our world as “SALT AND LIGHT“, to the point where our good deeds will cause others to glorify our father in HEAVEN?

Matthew 5:13-16

Salt and Light

13″You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

14″You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.”

Mark 9:50

“Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with each other.”

1 Peter 2:12

11Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. 12Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

Was generosity/compassion encouraged in the church? Of course, but when I read, it seems primarily an issue of taking care of one another that’s of focus in the church:

Acts 6 is another example that I think would be good to examine

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Again, God’s Word does make clear that as Believers we’re not to hid our lights by being quiet when we should speak, going along with the Crowd, denying the Light, letting our light dim, and ignoring the needs of others. We should make a difference in the “flavor” of the world we live in, just as Salt change’s meats flavor…….and we should be the ones who COUNTER-ACT the moral decay in society, just as salt preserves food from decay…..for when we lose this desire to “Salt” the earth with the love and message of God, we become useless to Him

      In the event that anyone says "Well, that's all good......but those things like compassion/gifts of mercy are not as important as teaching or preaching or prophets.....", we need to stop and take some serious investment of things. For often it seems things like this get passed over due to how in some people's eyes it's not as "exciting"(and in reality, for many "boring") to them to see it. Some even say that these kinds of things pale in comparision to many "revivals" taking place where miracles/wonders are happening. Prayerfully, many will again show just as much excitment/SUPPORT for the non-spectacular gifts (which,if interested, one can go here to investigate more: The Non-Spectacular Gifts & Many Gifts, One Spirit - Josh Harris ) and those movements where God is utlizing them to the max, whether in the U.S or in the entire WORLD....

Personally, I wonder how often we do the comparision thing even with people not with gifts of working wonders/gifts of healings and prophetic and teaching and underappreciate the efforts of those who may never step foot in the pulpit but who aided in the ministry nonetheless through gifts of MERCY/BENEVOLENCE, ENCOURAGEMENT and GENEROUS GIVING. Lydia came to Christ early but did much for the Gospel simply by sharing her home, but by todays standards many wouldn’t even give her a shout-out…..and would probably think that what made a difference was the PREACHING OF THE TEACHERS who’re seen primarily in public.(Acts 16:40, Acts 16:13-15 , Acts 16 ). Her hospitality, alongside those who do things such as this 24/7 is something to take note of regarding God's Working. Same with those women who're following Titus 2:3-5 (in Context) Titus 2 & seeking to instructing women/children in the Lord, whether through childcare or teaching in ways that the children can miraculously get it/walk with it (and for those feeling called to be MOTHERS IN THE HOME, be encouraged that it's NOT A FORGOTTEN OR UNECESSARY CALLING!!!!)----or the men who're keepn'n it real for the sake of the Gospel ( 1 Timothy 3)

The same thing goes for Priscilla and Aquilla, who simply opened their home and made a difference (even though for them, that basic undestanding of the WORD helped another—Apollos– whose full calling was expressed in Apolegetics (Acts 18:1-3, Acts 18, Acts 18:1-8, Acts 18:17-19 , Acts 18:25-27 , Romans 16:3, Romans 16:2-4, Romans 16, 1 Corinthians 16:19, 1 Corinthians 16:18-20 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 16 ). Ministry & Revival/God moving with them was a household issue where they could make a difference…but would they be recognized?

Same thing with one sista named Tabitha, whose ministry was INVAULABLE because of her work in benevolence/aiding the POOR---SOMETHING WHICH IS A SIGN OF GOD'S WORKING TOO!:

Here, nothing more than a ministry of benevolence/knitting clothes.....and yet this was a symbol of God's Revival on the LAND/WORKING THROUGH FOLKS powerfully....and the same with Cornelius (Acts 10:3-5, Acts 10): " 1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!" 4Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked. The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God."

Paul, gifted in working wonders, had an amazing list of folks included as his close friends who did things which we consider of no consequence but yet they were of utmost value to Him

There’re numerous other passages, but prayerfully it gets across to people. You can make a difference…..and your one act of kindness/compassion somewhere, if done for the Kingdom of God, is not something that is EVER in vain……as Jesus said, NO ONE GIVING A CUP OF COLD WATER IN THE NAME OF THE LORD will EVER FAIL TO RECIEVE His Reward……

To anyone concerned,

     This will be the last post I’m placing up regarding the issue with Lakeland, Florida…and thoughts on Todd Bently. Rather than give you my thoughts alone (which are already jumbled enough at times as it is, though exhaustive), here’s something that I thought would be better: REFERRING YOU TO THOSE WHO HAVE DONE GREATER WORK AND BETTER INSIGHT ON THE ISSUE.

First, the following are a list of solid teaching material on the issue of Spiritual Gifts and things regarding that topic so that the readers will have a solid foundation to stand upon when it comes to exercising discernment on issues (most of which are taken from one of the individuals I respect GREATLY in the Lord and his site, http://heatlight.wordpress.com/ )

WHAT ARE THE RESULTS OF SPIRIT BAPTISM? by Adrian Warnock (and also, in connection with Andrian, consider these online lectures from New Frontiers’ conference in the USA.  NEW FRONTIERS CHURCH LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE.)

Holy Laughter: blessing, curse, or something else? (An Excellent Discussion on the issue). There’s another by one lady entitled  http://discerningtheworld.wordpress.com/2008/01/05/laughter-manifesations-are-neat/ . In the authors words:

CONVERGENCE (iTunes podcast)- a sermon by Sam Storms on “Reformed Charismatic” theology, with a   s QUESTION AND ANSWERS session available.

- Using our Gifts in Proportion to our Faith part 1 (An excellent sermon on the prophetic, which I found Biblical, balanced, and challenging)

 SUBSEQUENCE, & ARE THE SIGN GIFTS NECESSARY: A DEBATE (2 excellent PDF’s of essays by Jesse Phillips, whose site entitled RESURGENCE is truly one of the GREATEST AROUND). Also, for anyone interested,  Is Prophecy the Same as Preaching (part 1)? & – Prophecy is NOT the Same as Preaching (part 2), which is also by Jesse Phillips at Resurgence and which is basically a marvelous two-part response to TeamPyro on whether, Biblically, Prophecy is the same thing as Preaching— a common Reformed Cessationist argument, flawed as well.

 JOHN OWEN ON THE SPIRITUAL GIFTS. (Intriguing thoughts by J.I. Packer on the issue….though of course,  I do not necessarily agree with it all, but interesting to study it remains nonetheless)

KNOWING HIM AND KNOWING ABOUT HIM (In other New Frontiers news, Terry Virgo).

      :

too much bloglove to even comment…read, quickly!HOW TO LISTEN TO A SERMON from The Blazing Center WHO IS THE KINGDOM FOR from The Gospel-Driven ChurchTHE CHARISMATIC QUESTION from Pulpit MagazineTHE BONDAGE OF GUIDANCE from Together for the Gospel

THE FAITH THAT ISN’T from Cerulean Sanctum

HAVING ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER from Challies.com

and lastly…

Audio & Video Messages from the Resurgence Conference: TEXT & CONTEXT

 

 

 

Others to consider (which are all audio, for those who are wanting something that they won’t have to read in-depth and just listen):

Concerning Spiritual Gifts – Pete Greasley/ChristChurch, Newport
Prophecy Today – Pete Greasley/ChristChurch, Newport
Use & Abuse of Tongues part 1 – Pete Greasley/ChristChurch, Newport
Use & Abuse of Tongues part 2 – Pete Greasley/ChristChurch, Newport

Discerning the Spirit – Bill Kittrell/Cornerstone Church of Knoxville
Discerning the Spirit’s Guidance – Bill Kittrell/Cornerstone Church of Knoxville
Empowered by the Spirit - Bill Kittrell/Cornerstone Church of Knoxville

The Kingdom Triangle – J.P. Moreland/Vineyard Anaheim

All except the Apostles – Michael Fletcher/Manna Church

Convergence – Sam Storms/Sojourn Community Church

       That said, here are the ones on Bently from those individuals I feel would be best to recommend on the issue:

 TODD BENTLEY AND THE LAKELAND FLORIDA ‘REVIVAL MEETINGS’, from Adrian Warnock–a most insightful article on the issue….and who happens to be publishing Jesse Phillips series of detailed accounts from his visit, as Jesse has taken a break from blogging. First is, WORSHIP AT THE LAKELAND FLORIDA REVIVAL MEETINGS, followed by WHAT IS HAPPENING IN LAKELAND FLORIDA?, then JESSE PHILLIPS REFLECTS ON THE LAKELAND FLORIDA REVIVAL MEETINGS,  MORE REFLECTIONS, with the FINAL THOUGHTS.

 Here is the AOG’s excellent official response to the numerous reports of revival around the world presently

Dan Edelen’s thoughts on the Lakeland Revival. 

 THE FLORIDA REVIVAL at the Gospel-Driven Church.

HONEST QUESTIONS ABOUT THE LAKELAND REVIVAL. (from Charisma’s editor, J. Lee Grady, possibly the most balance look at the so-called Lakeland Revival I have read yet)

 Lakeland, Florida, & aptly, Lakeland Florida (continued). (from Terry Virgo, leader of New Frontiers International, who has posted a two part blog-post entitled—considering the man’s a solid ‘reformed charismatic’ -and has given an excellent response on the issue)

DISCERNMENT, REVIVALS, & GODLY COMMON SENSE by Cerulean Sanctum
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT FLORIDA? by Blue Fish Project
LAKELAND (before) and LAKELAND TRIP (after) by Reformed-TULIP-Charismatic Girl

In line with that, these too are noteworthy:

My visit to Lakeland

When is a “Revival” Genuine?

Leaving Lakeland

Todd Bentley and the Lakeland Revival

Lakeland – real revival?

     As another wisely said on them (And his stance I hold the same too):

I don’t agree with all that’s written below – in fact, some I disagree with, but they are helpful perspectives to get a bigger picture of what’s happening:

There is much to take in, but I will let these speak for themselves: real people, honest thoughts, sincere emotions…seeking the truth.  Some have left the church entirely and are taking one last peak inside, some are in the middle of the excitement yet voicing concerns, some are sympathetic but have questions, and others are diametrically opposed.  Read, pray, listen.  Amen.

To that, I say AMEN…….going along with that, from that same individual, here’s an article that I thought would be benefical to all the readers here on this blog

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Last night I watched the Lakeland Revival on GodTV for the first time in over a month. This was brought about by the encouragement of a few friends, and then me stumbling across a recent YouTube ‘interview’ of sorts with Bentley. Though by no means do I ‘recant’ of my blogs on the subject (Be the Revival, Be the Miracle, Sound Doctrine, & Drop Kick), I was encouraged by much of what I saw.

Although I would love to see some ‘clarification’ (and correction of?) on some points of doctrine from Bentley, I will give him kudos in that he apparently listens to criticism from other believers. Last night there was far less talk of angels, no mention of ‘Emma’, and a LOT more talk of Jesus (though if I were a non-believer I’d still have pretty much no idea who Jesus was or what he did for me from the actual content of the revival teaching). In fact, there was far less ‘Todd’, and more ‘Jesus’, which is a considerable improvement over the last few times I had watched. More Jesus and less of anything else is always an improvement.

Another thing I really appreciated was the fact that he emphasized that – even with the world watching (and one has to admit that it adds a degree of risk to each possible healing) – he would pray for healing for anyone that came up to be prayed for. Now, though I don’t think illnesses, diseases, or viruses are all demons to be addressed ‘in Jesus name’, nor have I any idea what “Bam” or any of the other bizarre things Bentley says during ‘healings’ are intended to mean, as a “Third Wave Charismatic”, I love the openess to ‘pray’ for anyone. It would be even more powerful to me if it weren’t on a stage – move this thing to the streets, begin going door to door, meeting people’s needs then ask “Excuse me, may I…” BAM – healed! Maybe if there were less sound effects, and casting out diseases, and more actual prayers addressing God, and clearly trusting Him and His power to heal – then I would feel even less concerned by the Lakeland Outpouring.

Lastly, Todd claims they are trying to verify every healing testimony that is given on stage. That is an honorable thing indeed – I would expect no less from anyone that wasn’t a fake. However, given that Bentley himself gives no update from stage when healing testimonies are discovered to have not been true (which would increase the credibility factor 100% were he to do so), might it be better to do a full follow-up with the doctors and such FIRST, then – if it all pans out unquestionably – invite them to give their testimony at the revival? The fact that to-date none of the individuals having been raised from the dead as a result of this revival can be confirmed, and at least one has been proven false, as have a number of the healings (one husband was called after his wife was supposedly healed of deafness – he said his wife had never been deaf), leaves a great deal to be desired. I believe in healing – I’ve prayed for a man who was dying in the hospital with less than hours to live, who made a miraculous turn around and was home 2 days later (he’s still well, last I heard), but we shouldn’t expect sheeple to believe every radical testimony given on that stage, especially when some are shortly thereafter being shown untrue. Verify first, testify later. That said, kudos for pursuing any sort of verification whatsoever – that is a step in the right direction.

If I had one last request it would be this: TEACH JESUS. Thank you for mentioning Jesus more, and angels less (though, in an off-handed way, which I assumed Todd didn’t even realize, he did mention Jesus even more than he knows: in the Old Testament “the Angel of the Lord” IS the pre-incarnate Christ, since He is the only angel which receives worship without rebuking), however – as I mentioned before – if I were a non-believer watching I would have no idea, in reality, who this Jesus was. He could have been merely a miracle worker for all I know. Take time to teach Jesus – explain the Gospel more often, even if in simple terms. Acknowledge the indwelling problem of sin, and show how Jesus is the answer to that, Then the real miracles which may take place will have a larger context: they will make sense in the resurrected life of Jesus working through His Spirit in the church. That would be good news, indeed.

So, though I have no intentions of visiting Lakeland, and I still have my criticisms, doubts, & concerns, even I am not beyond acknowledging where I see growth and blessings. Don’t leave your head at the door, but don’t let me keep you from visiting either.

So be it! Amen…

I do hate to be the skeptic. Sometimes I think having discernment is more a curse than a gift. It might be fun to be able to jump on every bandwagon that comes down the Spiritual pike. It may not be spiritually healthy, but it might be fun.

Yet, I’ve done enough digging to know that my internal sense of uneasiness towards this ‘revival’ in Florida is not something I can support unquestionably with a clean conscious. I think the prophetically gifted Andrew Strom – who I disagree with on a few things as well – sums up most of my concerns quite well both here and here as does another blogger here(& though we don’t get along very well, I think Dan Philips makes a few good points himself). Don’t get me wrong – I hope & pray that the healings are genuine, even if the doctrine behind them is askew, for the sake of both those looking for healing and for the Glory of God. And that’s really what it comes down to: is this really about God?

That’s what I loved about the First Great Awakening, and Jonathan Edwards: from all accounts, Edwards was far from flashy – He preached the Word, God moved, people’s hearts were changed, and they came to God by the thousands. And it didn’t happen only in one church, but many, and for almost ten years! That’s what I call a revival, and that’s the sort of move of God that I’ve been praying for: that God will be the center – that Christ will be lifted up and made much of – that the Holy Spirit will move (which Scripturally means He will draw eyes AWAY from himself, and TO Jesus).

As I wrote a good friend this morning, I’m not going on the rampage battling against this – in fact, that would be silly. Ultimately if it’s not the real deal that will become readily clear (it always does), even if it takes some time. In fact, it’s probably a mix of divinely revealed truth, and human error, which I’ve dealt with before on this blog. However, I’d hate to see believers whom I love go the route that emphasizes flash & bang over (and ultimately against, since it’s a distraction from the real deal) what Christ did on the Cross, and the heart of the Gospel.

Don’t get me wrong – walking in the Kingdom of God results in miracles, but the picture of how the apostles worked miracles – the part miracles played in their ministry – and how many modern-day revival preachers use them look so different that I have a hard time even comparing the two. We’re so thirsty for signs & wonders that we forget what it means to actually follow God day-to-day, and instead we run to where-ever we hear that something exciting is happening.

Think about this: the only time I recall Paul going to where the signs & wonders were happening was to rebuke them for doing it incorrectly.

The real core of the issue is this: why even bother going to where someone else may or may not be experiencing ‘revival’? If it’s real, and God wants to do it, pray for it where you are! Then, when God sovereignly brings revival, you’ll be in the midst of it – you’ll already know the hearts and motives of those involved – you’ll see the real change in your own heart, and know your deeper affection towards God, and recognize it in those you’ve known all along when you see lasting change in them. Ultimately, that’s how one recognizes true revival – not only by it’s immediate external expressions, but it’s fruit many years after the ‘buzz’ has left the building.

I’m just another voice that wants to see God’s will done on earth as it is in Heaven – it just so happens that this voice isn’t yet convinced that many of the modern day revivals are working to bring that about. I say, “Be the real revival – don’t go to one.”

In the midst of all the discussion about the Lakeland Revival, the unusual over-emotional expressions of the first great awakening are often brought up. Having read Jonathan Edwards‘ biography, his collected sermons, and his ‘Religious Affections’, as well as being midway through Sam Storm’s “Signs of the Spirit”, and having long research the life and teaching of George Whitefield, I can honestly say that there is a very significant difference between the revivals of old, and the so-called revivals of today, and those differences are what give me pause.

The difference is that Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, and most (if not all) of preachers involved in the First Great Awakening, were Orthodox Evangelical Christians – they taught sound doctrine, and modeled correct practice. Yes, the crowds, when some were touched by the Spirit of God, sometimes responded with a mix of Spirit and flesh, and there were – to be sure, by Edward’s own account – many among them who were merely caught up in the emotion of it all, who acted not in response to a move of God’s Spirit on their hearts, but merely to the buzz of emotion in the air. However, all the while they heard the Gospel proclaimed – the Scriptures taught with an attention to detail, and truthfulness. It was not the goal of Edwards or Whitefield to work the churches they stood before into an emotional frenzy, but to teach the truth of God, and see people respond appropriately.

I can look beyond unorthopraxy in those attending the Lakeland Revival, but what grieves my Spirit is that so many of those allowed to take the pulpit aren’t orthodox in what they teach or practice, both of which are important to genuine, full-orbed Christian faith.

A few years ago I taught on this passage from 1st John:

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist–he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us–even eternal life. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit–just as it has taught you, remain in him. — 1 John 2:18-27

 

Here is what I wrote about these important verses…

“Here John gives us couple of ways that we can identify saving faith. He asks, “Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is antichrist – he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” It appears as though individuals had left the congregation because they no longer believed the truth about Jesus.

Notice that by denying that Jesus is the Christ, we also deny God the Father. Since Jesus revealed the one true God who spoke through the prophets, by denying Jesus we show that we also do not truly believe in the one true God of the Old Testament, since one testified to the truth of the other.

Notice, also, the results of this false belief: they left the church. Remember this; it is SO IMPORTANT that we believe what is ultimately true because what we believe has an effect on what we DO — on how we live! Here the results of their misconceptions were divisions in the church, but every time we accept what Paul called deceptive philosophy over the truth of God it will have some sort of negative results. We were made to live out what we believe, whether it be true saving faith, or falsehood and lies. Either way we will live according to what we believe is ultimately true.

Later John expands on this thought by saying, “Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God “(from 1 John 4:1-6). We should strive to know the Biblical truth about God, and to live out the teachings of Scripture, in order that we might present ourselves as a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)“

There are ways of denying the Father & the Son that are not overt – in fact, as an Angel of Light, those are the means that Satan most often employs. When one is actively acknowledging Jesus – that He is of God, and came ‘in the flesh’ – that individual is by necessity being Cross-Centered, & Gospel-Driven. To focus attention primarily on the Holy Spirit, who’s central goal is the guide eyes to Christ, is to actually go against the Spirit, and to risk submitting to another spirit entirely – one that is not quite so Holy.

Sound doctrine and correct practice should accompany the Spirit-filled, Spirit-guided man of God, as the Holy Spirit not only teaches us the Scriptures, but even more-so, applies them to our hearts and lives. To claim to have come in the name of God, and to claim to be led by His Holy Spirit, yet to not teach Cross-Centered sound doctrine, and to not practice Biblical orthopraxy – well, of that person we should at least set our ‘discernment’ on ‘high’, and be very careful to ‘test the spirits’ in every thing we hear them say or see them do.

Please don’t leave your brain at the door in exchange for an experience. If you do so, there is no promise that the experience you have will be one from God, no matter how good it may make you feel at the time. Be blessed.

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIjO4wMLjBk

As someone else said on the video, “Apparently “God” isn’t interested in the church hearing about Jesus any more. Todd Bentley claims that God wants people to believe in the angel named “winds of change” that supposedly visited Bentley at the beginning of the Lakeland “revival”.”

And In the words of John Piper, “you never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, NEVER outgrow your need for the gospel.” Even if the church really did have “no problem believing in Jesus,” that doesn’t mean we set Him aside and move on. The gospel must be proclaimed constantly.

For more instances on what happened when the Gospel was preached,

Acts 4:29-31

“And now, Lord, look upon their threats, and grant to thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness, while thou stretchest out thy hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of thy holy servant Jesus.” And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness.

Acts 9:28
So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord.
Acts 9:27-29 (in Context) Acts 9 (Whole Chapter)

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.
Acts 13:45-47 (in Context) Acts 13

Acts 18:26

Acts 28:31
Boldly and without hindrance he preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 28:30-31 (in Context) Acts 28

As the old saying goes, that was the straw that broke the Camel’s Back….and as I stated earlier, “Though on many teachings Todd Bently’s off, I’m waiting on ******** evidence of his DENYING THE GOSPEL—-that did it for me.

Of course, as another said,

A Christless Pentecost

Is Christ Becoming A Stranger Among Us?

David Wilkerson

The following is a prophetic warning from Azusa Street 75 years ago, concerning the dangers of a Christless Pentecost!

Frank Bartleman was an eyewitness to the out-pouring of the Holy Spirit in 1907 at Azusa Street, Los Angeles. He has been characterized as the Reporter of the Azusa Street Revival. Nearly 75 years ago, during the outpouring, he wrote a tract warning of a Christless Pentecost

He warned: “We may not hold a doctrine, or seek an experience, except in Christ. Many are willing to seek power in order to perform miracles, draw attention and adoration of the people to themselves, thus robbing Christ of His glory, and making a fair showing in the flesh. The greatest need would seem to be for true followers of the meek and lowly Jesus. Religious enthusiasm easily goes to seed. The human spirit so predominates the show-off, religious spirit. But we must stick to our text-Christ.

“Any work that exalts the Holy Ghost or ‘gifts’ above Jesus will finally end up in fanaticism. Whatever causes us to exalt and love Jesus is well and safe. The reverse will ruin all. The Holy Ghost is a great light, but focused on Jesus always for His revealing.

“Where the Holy Ghost is actually in control, Jesus is proclaimed the Head-the Holy Ghost, His executive.”

In another place, Brother Bartleman warned:

“The temptation seems to be toward empty manifestations. This does not require any particular cross, or death to the self-life. Hence it is always popular.

“We may not put power, gifts, the Holy Ghost, or in fact anything ahead of Jesus. Any mission that exalts even the Holy Ghost above the Lord Jesus Christ is bound for the rocks of error and fanaticism.

“There seems to be a great danger of losing sight of the fact that Jesus was ‘all in all’ The work of Calvary, the atonement, must be the center for our consideration. The Holy Ghost will never draw our attention from Christ to Himself, but rather reveal Christ in a fuller way. We are in danger of slighting Jesus – getting Him ‘lost in the temple,’ by the exaltation of the Holy Ghost and of the gifts of the Spirit. Jesus must be the center of everything.”

I do not take Brother Bartleman’s warning lightly. The danger of a Christless Pentecost is very real today. I say to you it is possible to gather Spirit-filled people in one place, praising and lifting up their hands – and still have Christ walking among them as a stranger!

It’s true He said, “Where two or three have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst.” (Matt. 18:20 NASB) But He can be in our midst as a stranger! Ignored, unrecognized – even by those who meet in His name! The Jews gathered every Sabbath in the synagogue to speak of His name, and to prophesy of His coming. They praised the name of the Father who promised to send Him. They spoke the Messiah’s name with awe and reverence. Then, when He came and walked among them – He was not recognized! He was a stranger to them!

Christ, a stranger in the midst of a Spirit-filled congregation? A stranger in the midst of those who speak His name – who worship the Father who sent Him? A stranger to those who sing His hosannas, who call Him “Lord, Lord”?

Yes! Absolutely yes! It is not only possible – it is happening among God’s chosen people today!

Let me show you three ways in which we are making Christ a stranger In our midst! May the Holy Spirit take away our spiritual blindness so we can once again see Him as He really is – LORD OF ALL!

I. We Make Christ A Stranger – By Giving The Holy Spirit Pre-Eminence Over Him!

Christ, and Christ alone, must be the center of life and worship!

“And He is the head of the body, the Church: who Is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the pre-eminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell…” (Col. 1:18-19 KJV)

“That in all things He might have the pre-eminence…” That is – distinguished and spoken of above all others. Having first place in all things. Not even the Holy Spirit is to be exalted above that name! The upper room must never overshadow the Cross! We dare not think of Christ as simply the one who sent the Holy Spirit. In other words, “Thank You, Jesus, for sending someone better.” Christ sent the Holy Spirit to reveal His own fullness within us.

When the Holy Spirit becomes the center of our attention, the church gets out of focus! The Holy Spirit descended upon Christ as He came out of baptismal waters, and the Father said of Him: “This is My beloved Son – In whom I am well pleased…” The Spirit descended bodily like a dove, but the focus was on the Lamb of God – who taketh away the sins of the world. Not the dove, but the Lamb!

Christ told His disciples of a coming Pentecost, when the Spirit would be outpoured for a single purpose: It was to be a power given to lift up the name of Christ! “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost Is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me… unto the uttermost part of the earth…” (Acts 1:8 KJV)

Jesus made it clear that when the Spirit comes He will not draw attention to Himself, but will focus on Christ’s words. He will exalt Christ.

“…when He, the Spirit of truth, is come… He shall not speak of Himself… He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Mine, and shall show it unto you. All things that the Father hath are Mine: therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall show It unto you.” (John 16:13-15 KJV)

Jesus said, “He will show you My glory, My power, My Kingdom. He will remind you of all My words.” The primary work of the Holy Spirit is not fellowship, although He does bring believers together as one in Christ. It is not ecstasy. It is not simply to teach us an unlearned tongue. The Spirit has come to exalt Christ! To guide all mankind to the truth that Christ is Lord! It is not enough to say the Spirit has brought us close to each other – He must bring us closer to Christ!

The fullness of the Spirit is the fullness of Christ If you do not have a consuming love for Christ, you do not have a Holy Ghost baptism! Christ, the baptizer, sent the Holy Spirit to fire our souls over lost humanity, to get us out into the highways and hedges to reach the unsaved. To shake up our lazy lifestyles and get us to doing His work. The blessed Holy Spirit will be grieved, and finally withdraw, the moment men try to exalt Him above the Son of God! He will not permit His power to be abused by those who want only the gift and not Christ, the Giver!

What is a true Holy Ghost meeting? Is it where people all speak with tongues? Or where people are healed? Where saints jump for joy? Where saints are prophesying? More – much more than that! It is where Christ is being exalted, where His holiness pierces the soul, where men and women fall before His holy throne, broken, humbled – crying, “Holy, Holy.” The moving of the Holy Spirit is a moving closer to Christ, deeper in Christ, with a greater submission to His Lordship!

II. Christ Is Made A Stranger When People Praise Him, But Will Not Pray To Him!We want His healing power. We want His promises of prosperity. We want His protection. We want more of this earth’s goods. We want His happiness. But we really don’t want Him alone!

The Church once confessed its sins – now it confesses its rights

How many of us would serve Him if He offered nothing but Himself? No healing. No success. No prosperity. No worldly blessings. No miracles, signs, or wonders. What if – onceagain we had to take joyfully the spoiling of our goods? What if – instead of clear sailing and problem-free living, we faced shipwreck, fears within and fightings without? What if -instead of painless living, we suffered cruel mockings, stoning, bloodshed – being sawn asunder? What if – instead of our beautiful homes and cars, we had to wander about in deserts in sheepskins, hiding in dens and caves? What if – instead of prosperity, we were destitute, afflicted, and tormented? And the only better thing provided for us was Christ?

Very few of God’s people pray anymore! They are too busy working for Jesus to talk to Him! Ministers especially have become so busy doing kingdom work, they have little or no time left to pray. There is time to visit, to build, to travel, time to vacation, to attend meetings, time for recreation, reading, counseling – but no time to pray!

Preachers who do not pray become promoters. They become frustrated building contractors. When they lose touch with God, they lose touch with their people and their needs. Preachers who don’t pray have egos that spin out of control. They want their own way. They substitute sweat for unction (anointing).

Evangelists who do not pray become stars, storytellers. They lack humility, so they manipulate crowds through emotional gimmicks. The cry of many pastors is, “Oh, God, where can I find an evangelist who doesn’t care about money, or who is not promoting something? One who can bring heaven down and make Christ real! Oh, God – give me a praying man to bring my congregation to its knees!” The shame of this generation is that we have too many talented men of God and only a few who have touched God in prayer.

There is even less praying in the congregation! I’m 100% for getting prayer back in our public schools! But that’s not God’s real problem! His problem is getting prayer back in our homes! His problem is to get His own chosen people to pray! And you are a phony if you fight for school prayer and neglect secret-closet praying yourself!

Do we pray? Oh, yes! When we need something. We have the formula down pat – “in the name of Jesus.” All we need Him for is to counter sign our petition checks before the Father.

I am weary of hearing people say, “This is such a busy age – I have no time to pray. I’d like to, but I don’t have time.” No! It’s not lack of time; it is a lack of desire. We make time for what we really want to do. Look at our Christian young people! Wasting hours of time playing Pac-Man, Galaxy War, goofing off, bored, restless, looking for some action! But no time to pray! No time for Jesus! Oh, God! Somehow! Some way! Get this generation on its knees. Not just the Lord’s Prayer, but a daily communion with Christ .

Our Savior, who has the care and concern for multiplied universes, has the time to pray just for you! He takes the time to intercede for you before the throne of God (Heb. 7:25), and you say you do not have time to pray to Him!

We work feverishly for a Christ we ignore. We will go anywhere, do anything, in His name. But we will not pray. We will sing in a choir. We will visit the sick and the prisoners. But we will not pray. We will counsel the hurt and needy; we will stay up all night to comfort a friend, but we will not pray. We will fight corruption! We will crusade for morality! We will stand up against nuclear weapons! But we will not pray!

Most of all, we don’t pray because we really don’t believe it works. Prayer is a bloody battleground! It is where victories are won! A place to die to self! A place where a holy God exposes secret sin! No wonder Satan tries to hinder prayer! A praying man sends a shudder through hell. That man or woman is marked because Satan knows prayer is the power that crushes his kingdom. Satan is not afraid of power-hungry saints, but he trembles at the sound of a praying saint!

III. Christ Is Made a Stranger In Our Midst – When We Want His Power More Than His Purity!

Reader Harris, an Englishman and director of The Pentecostal League of Prayer, once challenged a congregation on this matter of power and purity. He said, “Those who want power, line up to my right. Those who want purity, line up to my left.” The congregation lined up 10 to 1 – for POWER!

In the book of Acts, Pentecost was synonymous with purity more than power. Peter told the council at Jerusalem what God did at the house of Cornelius, “God…giving them the Holy Ghost, even as He did unto us…purifying their hearts by faith…” (Acts 15:8-9 KJV)

Who is the man or woman of God who has power? Is it the one who can heal the sick and raise the dead? Is it the one who can best talk in tongues and prophesy? Is it the one who draws the most people and builds the greatest church? No! The one with the power – is the one with the purity! “…the righteous are bold as a lion… (Proverbs 28:1 KJV)

The prophet Malachi prophesied of a supernatural purge coming to God’s house.

“… the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His temple… but who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appeareth? For He is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap. And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.” (Malachi 3:1-3 KJV)

This is a dual prophecy. He speaks of Christ’s first coming, and also of His second! He will come again suddenly, as a thief in the night. But first, He will purify His Church.

We are not ready for the coming of Christ! Is this the Church triumphant? Covetous, divorcing, depressed, worldly-minded, grasping for materialism and success, competitive, lukewarm, adulterous, rich and increased with goods, unaware of spiritual blindness and poverty, pleasure-loving, recreation-minded, consumed with sports, politics, and power – is this the Church Jesus is coming for?Simply coping, filled with fear and anxiety, satisfied only to have good health and happiness?

My Bible says He is coming back for an overcoming Church! A Church without spot or wrinkle! A people whose affections are on things above! A people with clean hands and pure hearts. A people who are looking for His coming! A people with a “new Jerusalem state of mind.”

The question is no longer, “What can my faith get me? What miracle will He perform for me?” The question now is -”How shall I stand before Him? How shall I make it at the judgment?” “… who shall stand when He appeareth?” (Malachi 3:2 KJV)

The question is no longer, “How do! feel – how do! get happiness? How do I get the desire of my heart?”

The question Is-”Can I withstand that moment when I stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ? How can I withstand when I’ve lived so carelessly, so selfishly, so neglectful of His great salvation?” The central issue now has nothing to do with this world at all. At issue is-”HAVE I NEGLECTED CHRIST IN THIS MIDNIGHT HOUR?”

The purge is going to begin in the pulpit! “…He shall purify the sons of Levi…” (Malachi 3:3 KJV) God is going to accomplish that by “turning up the heat ” God isgoing to make things so hot, so fiery, so intense, God’s men will be driven to their knees! This isthe fire of the Holy Ghost! It isthe fire of persecution. It is the fire of tribulation. The fire of unbelievable hardships, ridicule, gossip, financial problems. He is going to shake everything that can be shaken! He is going to shake, and scrub, and burn, and purge – and purify!

No man or woman of God will escape the purging! God is determined to get all the dross and filth out of us. The purge will spread from the pulpit to the pew! Get ready, saints! God is getting ready to expose all sin, all adultery, all foolishness! The Holy Ghost is going to reprove us of sin. How can you play games when God puts you in His crucible and turns up the fire? Your Holy Ghost baptism is going to have some fire put to it now!

Malachi said-”…the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven: and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up…” (Malachi 4:1 KJV)

God also promises to bring down the strongholds of the enemy! He is going to once and for all let the devil and the world know who has the power!

If God is about to do all that the prophets predicted He would – WHAT A GLORIOUS FUTURE JUST AHEAD!

• A purged, purified ministry!

• A Church that God is calling back to repentance and holiness.

• A people washed, cleansed – offering praises in true righteousness.

• A revival among our young people! Drug strongholds coming down! Alchohol and divorce no longer prevalent among God’s people.

• The sound of prayer-intercession!

• A people of God who will discern between the holy and the unholy!

• Everywhere, God’s people turning again to the Word.

• A tested, tried people, once again devoted to the Person of Jesus Christ!

• His Person being lifted up to draw all men to Him!

• Christ no longer the stranger in our midst, but CROWNED – PRE-EMINENT!

• A Pentecost that truly exalts the name and power of Jesus Christ, the Lord of all.

__________________

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We praise a Christ to whom we will not pray! We have become a praising people, but not a praying people. For many of God’s people the prayer closet is a relic of the past. “Why ask God for what He has already promised? Just get hold of the promises and simply command deliverances!“We no longer want Christ as much as we want what He can do for us. We want an escape from pain and suffering. We want our troubles to vanish. And we are so caught up in our escape from pain, we lose the true meaning of the Cross. We refuse crosses and losses – no Gethsemane for us! No nights of agony! We don’t even know this suffering, bleeding, resurrected Christ!

If anyone kept up, earlier I shared some of my thoughts on PRISON MINISTRY and why it seems those with giftings in those paticular areas/giftings (i.e. gifts of encouragement, helping others, administration, mercy, etc) don’t get recognized as much. Personally (though in Florida God may be doing many great things), I’m waiting for the day when there’ll be as much excitment about getting involved in the lives of the Black Community and seeing them rise up—-the fatherless being taken care of through adoption/people with solid families interacting in their lives and showing them how to be men, widows being married instead of baby-daddies going about their way and women no longer believing their being on welfare/medicaid makes them inherently less of a woman/worthless than others, folks coming out of poverty/no longer WIPPING THEMSELVES OUT THROUGH ABORTION, etc. And for that matter, prayerfully for those focused on Florida there’ll be more excitment/coverage and support of things many Christians in the U.S are doing which seem to get less than they deserve. One example would be things such as this street ministry called TEEN CHALLENGE:

Quote:

Wilkerson was convicted by an article in Life Magazine about a Gang slaying in New York City. And then after some years of providing an intense “discipling” type of ministry to gangs in NYC concentrating on getting ‘em saved, and Spirit filled started to branch out. “Cross and Switchblade” is the account of the early days of the ministry. By independent evaluation the TC “success rate” based on hard-core addicts who enter the TC program, and successfully complete it is just over 86% STILL “clean” 5 years after “graduating”. They are now operating in 6 Muslim countries partnering with “Global Renewal” (Pakistan was the first one) under a unique set of governmentally approved ground rules: The Muslim addicts coming into the program are encouraged to pray to Allah for themselves, and then the Teen Challenge staff then prays in the Name of Jesus – and the folks in the program can experience for themselves who actually “delivers the goods”, moves in power and delivers – and subsequently accept Jesus as Saviour and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

To see more info, go here:http://teenchallengeusa.com/

Many of these kats who came in of course are dealing with sinful behaviors which are by-products of their drup/substance abuse habits…..and yet they’ve been set free. Many who’ve done street preaching have perhaps preached to these kats and they were still unable to get set free. They knew they were already going to Hell and that they were in Trouble, yet that didn’t set them free. Getting “down & dirty”/involved with those kats made a huge difference, loving them where they were and seeing them come clean eventually. Of course these things are happening among racial minorities…and in fact, regarding Florida, many kats I know of are doing these very things. As said previously, many of the individuals who’re in these same revivals getting attention, though the excess are an issue, are the ones going out & ministering to the poor, feeding the hungry, visiting people in prision, and walking in the power of God/impacting folks for the Lord. Not all, of course…..but there are many and the presence of some bad apples shouldn’t be allowed to represent the rest in the bunch. Have friends and family–like my friend named Mrs.Harris who’s all for what’s going down in Florida Revival and all the kats like Bickle, Todd Bently, Patrica King, etc……and yet, despite how the excess bothers me/needs to be adressed, she does youth work in a detention center/correctional facility. She works with the kids who were the runaways, prostitutes, and ones no one else wishes to work with. She seeks to promote racial renconcilliation, seeing that she’s white and the majority of her girls are black…and though the culture gap makes it hard at times to relate, they still see/appreciate her encouragements/being REAL with them as she’s daily in the trenches praying for them/building them up in the Lord. She and others have prayed over their campus/against things, and many miraculous things have happened in the past 3yrs—from having a very strong WICCAN Prescence on the grounds disappear/dwindle to having more solid Christian Staff come aboard and support from those even in the secular camps because of their astounding work.

We both have seen healings, wonders, and has been a TREMENDOUS blessing to me in my walk with the Lord Jesus. But again, this isn’t something that seems as common in Black CULTURE as what happens in many of the circles of folks involved at Florida. And many of them I think would benefit from seeing the miraculous/those who’re gifted in working wonders (and if you recall, I believe we discussed this in another thread when I brought up the instances of folks dealing with sin issues being touched by the power of God/Changed—one guy I saw during my tour of “The CALL” in Alabama shared his testimony of how the Power of God freed him of his addictions… http://video.google.com/videosearch?…ny&sitesearch= and I’ve heard/seen personally many others like that which have been a huge blessing to me. But in thinking about the Florida Movement, there are times when I cannot help but wonder “Man, Lord…all of those healings/wonders taking place down there with people apparently being saved—–and I wonder why it’s not happening on the streets where many of these kats may need it most, seeing that we’re preaching the Gospel/TRUTH to them and doing best as we can

We’re seeking to Beware of hype and exaggeration seeing that J. Lee Grady from Charisma best said said, “some of the language used during the Lakeland Revival has created an almost sideshow atmosphere. People are invited to “Come and get some.” Miracles are supposedly “popping like popcorn.” Organizers tout it as the greatest revival in history.’…….Such brash statements cheapen what the Holy Spirit is doing—and they do a disservice to our brothers and sisters who are experiencing New Testament-style revival in countries such as Iran, China and India. And We have a long way to go before we experience their level of revival. Let’s stay humble and broken before the Lord…..Miracles are awesome. Crowds are great. But miracles and crowds alone don’t guarantee a revival. Multitudes followed Jesus during His ministry on earth, but many of the people who saw the dead raised or ate food that was supernaturally multiplied later crucified the Son of God. It was the few disciples who followed Jesus after Calvary who ushered in a true revival—one that was bathed in the fear of God, confirmed by signs and wonders, tempered by persecution and evidenced by thousands of conversions, new churches and the transformation of society. We should expect nothing less.

.but man, if they could only see something more to know how REAL YOU ARE AND HOW COOL YOUR POWER TO HEAL/DELIVER IS!!”

Should there come a time when Miraculous Signs and WOnders accompanying the GOSPEL (Acts 14:2-4 (in Context) Acts 14 )
happen in more urban/impoverished camps Or in the GHETTO/PROJECTS as well, marvelous…..but it doesn’t seem to happen enough. And till then, I can only HOPE…AND BE GLAD THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD WORKS IN MORE WAYS THAN ONE—AND IF THE GOSPEL’S BEING PREACHED, I REJOICE NONETHELESS SINCE THAT’S THE GREATEST WONDER–A SOUL CONVERTED/ON FIRE FOR THE LORD AND IN TOUCH WITH HIS LOVE

          Regarding the simple things mentioned (i.e. compassion, mercy, benevolence, etc), I’m reminded of something another said on the issue when it seemed that many for Lakeland, Florida, seemed to be dissing those who were pretty conservative on the issue.

For when critiquing the movement, one individual had this to say:

In hearing that, I thought it had many solid points. Theology without HUMILITY or PASSION FOR THE LORD is a deception, as that’s what many of the Pharisees had.But on the flip, Though not PARAMOUNT above all else, it’s nonetheless of importance….alongside things such as DISCERNMENT) If you’re interested, Reformed CHarismatic Joshua Harris did an EXCELLENT teaching on the subject of how one should basically seek the BEST OF BOTH WORLDS—-PASSION for the Lord in EXPERIENING HIM but also in LEARNING OF HIM IN THEOLOGY/LOVING HIM WITH OUR MINDS (http://video.google.com/videosearch?…oxy&sitesearch

1 Timothy 1:3
[ Warning Against False Teachers of the Law ] As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
1 Timothy 1:2-4 (in Context) 1 Timothy 1

1 Timothy 4:13
Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.
1 Timothy 4:12-14 (in Context) 1 Timothy 4

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Timothy 4:15-16 (in Context) 1 Timothy 4

1 Timothy 5:17
The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
1 Timothy 5:16-18 (in Context) 1 Timothy 5

Titus 1:9
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
Titus 1:8-10 (in Context) Titus 1

Titus 2:1
[ What Must Be Taught to Various Groups ] You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
Titus 2:1-3 (in Context) Titus 2 someone mentioned this and I thought it was pretty noteworthy:

What are ya’lls thoughts on the issue? the things she shared regarding Macarther, as I couldn’t of said it better. To be clear, I definately feel where the one sister in support of Bently is coming from regarding manifestations. If it happens, it happens…..and I think Dave Root did a pretty good article on the subject once (Is It Scriptural to Be “Slain in the Spirit”? ) that helped me keep things in perspective. Often times, in the name of “ORDER”, we end up hindering things (And if we’re to be honest, what we sometimes mean in saying order is really “CONTROL” due to fear of the unknown/what may be beyond us). As an excerpt from one of the articles (with two passages from Acts added in by me), Here are most or all of the places in the New Testament where demons caused people to fall to the ground:

“Even while the boy was coming, the demon threw him to the ground in a convulsion. But Jesus rebuked the evil spirit, healed the boy and gave him back to his father.” (Luke 9:42. This is repeated in Matthew 17:14-15 and Mark 9:20)

“Whenever the evil spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.”" (Mark 3:11)

“When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torture me!”" (Luke 8:27-28. This is repeated in Matthew 8:28-29 and Mark 5:2-8)

“In the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon, an evil spirit. He cried out at the top of his voice, “Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are–the Holy One of God!” “Be quiet!” Jesus said sternly. “Come out of him!” Then the demon threw the man down before them all and came out without injuring him.” (Luke 4:33-35. This is repeated in Mark 1:23-26)

Acts 8:7
With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed.
Acts 8:6-8

Acts 16:17
Paul and Silas in Prison
16Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her. Acts 16:16-18 (in Context) Acts 16

From these passages we can see that pastors, prayer team members, and so on should be sensitive to the fact that people can fall to the ground under the influence of demonic spirits. This has happened at my church on at least one occasion when a man came forward for prayer, then fell to his knees with his face to the floor, “dry heaving” as if he needed to vomit something out (which apparently happens sometimes when demons are coming out of a person). On another occasion, a demon began manifesting itself in a woman in the congregation at our church, and she was gently taken to another room for counseling and prayer. The New Testament demonstrates that these things can and do happen, and therefore churches should be sensitive and prepared for such situations.

      That said, It of those who’re CONSERVATIVE like Macarther….for in his church/many like it, it seems as if many of the arguments they make from Scripture don’t truly prepare people for things such as aiding people in deliverance——and while many of those in the Charismatic movement try to tackle the issue, mistakes happen…..and then when manifestations/excesss happen happening in CHarismatic Circles recieve criticism with the “excesses” is the focus (such as in Macarther’s Book “Charismatic Chaos”, which certainly had some great points but in many places was unfair. And I definately agree regarding how it seems in many respects Macarther’s arguments against anything Charismatic have truly legitimized “a qiuenching of the Spirit”. Perhaps what I’m trying to say is that just as an reaction to wanting God by allowing excesses can be deadly (like the article from Charisma you gave mentioned), so is it the same with people reacting to those same excesses/seeking to honor God in having order by being too “RESTRICTIVE”/”RESERVED”.

Even if it’s an issue of people wanting a scholarly approach to things/preaching & simple expository teaching of the Word, there are plenty of Charismatic Kats who do just that—and yet they’re willing to overcome the “spooky” extremes and devote prayerful, open-minded study to the subject of demonology. Sam Storms is a great example I THINK (who used to be a CESSATIONIST—but later switched sides in life to the Charismatic side (http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/search-results/?keywords=DEMONIZED&show_results=N%253B)). Another would be kats like Derek Prince, who was very much into deliverance ministry/believed in the reality of spiritual forces operating the world, and of the power of demons

However, as the one sister earlier quoted who is in support of John Macarther, as she said, I don’t think JM denies the gifts of the Spirit….& It is not as if he does not believe in the work of the Spirit today!

whereas others like Joel Osteen, T.D Jakes, Rick Warren, or others have literally kept QUIET on issues of the Gospel, I’ve never seen Macarther flinch ONCE—-and boldness is truly a WORK OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD

Acts 4:31
After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.
Acts 4:30-32 (in Context) Acts 4

Acts 9:28
So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord.
Acts 9:27-29 (in Context) Acts 9 (Whole Chapter)

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.
Acts 13:45-47 (in Context) Acts 13

Acts 19:8
Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God.
Acts 19:7-9 (in Context) Acts 19

Acts 28:31
Boldly and without hindrance he preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 28:30-31 (in Context) Acts 28

Boldness for the Gospel is a true evidence of the Spirit of God at worl—-not to mention being persecuted for the sake of the GOSPEL/CHRIST’S NAME (Matthew 5:10-12 )….and if one does a google video search on Macarther on TBN verses others, one should be able to QUICKLY see that. Does he have perfect theology? Of course not, but neither do I or you or numerous others (and as my friend wisely said, the only one I agree with 100% is myself, ).

I’d also like to re-emphasize that even though he may have a false teaching of WHOLESALE Cessationism, the fact that he’s willing to work with those in camps DIFFERENT than his means alot (at least in my book), as evidenced by his working with many Solid Kats who’ve done much for the Kingdom—-folks like Mark Denver (from www.9marks.org , dealing with establishing godly churches with Sound Doctrine/Practice), John Piper and C.J Mahanney (Reformed CHARISMATICS), Albert Mohler, and numerous others. Again, for evidence, all one need to do is check out the Conference entitled “TOGETHER FOR THE GOSPEL” ( http://www.t4g.org/speakers.html ) to see how Macarther supports the gathering together of men from various denominations for the sake of exalting Christ. I’m very grateful for this, for as you know/agree, and very pleased seeing how though folks disagree with each other, they’re still able to focus on what they have in COMMON AND WHAT REALLY MATTERS. And they all SHOW HOW IT’S A REALITY THAT WE CAN LEARN FROM AND ASSOCIATE with Believers holding DIFFERING interpretations ——For what’s ESSENTIAL is THE CENTRALITY OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST/UNITING FOR THE SAKE OF SPREADING THE GOSPEL…..

What we can and cannot agree on but still be united on is a sensitive subject for many (but there’s room for it, as explained here–Together for What?— otherwise bump denominations which all have something they divided from others on because to them it didn’t seem like it was true to God’s Spirit ). Matt Slick, actually, has written some pretty solid articles on the issue—one entitled Doctrine Grid and the other entitled APOSTASY in the Christian CHurch. Seeing that Spiritual Gifts is a SECONDARY issue alongside many others, I tend not to trip as much as long as the BASIC BUILDING blocks are in place. For not all Followers will resemble each other or belong to the SAME GROUPS. And People who are on Jesus’ side have the SAME GOAL of BUILDING UP THE KINGDOM of GOD, & THEY SHOULD NOT LET THEIR DIFFERENCES INTERFERE WITH THIS GOAL ( I Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4:1-16)

Continuing, these are the other Scriptures dealing with the issue (revealing things like the gift of mercy, serving, teaching, benevolence/meeting the needs of others, generous giving, encouraging, leadership, mercy and serving):

……Why is it that those things which are known as SIGN GIFTS (i.e. Words of Knowledge, Healings, Working Wonders, etc) seem to get more attention and wherever they’re at, people say revival’s TRULY THERE…..and yet in those other areas where things like mercy, benevolence and leadership are taking place EXCEPTIONALLY well people act as if that’s LESS OF A REVIVAL or SOMETHING WORTH TAKING SIGNIFICANT NOTICE/INVESTMENT in?

Guess I’m on a bit of a soapbox with things, seeing that this is a passion of mine and I’ve written about this before (LOCK-UP: Releasing the Gifts of the Spirit among PRISIONS & Kats doing 25yrs to LIFE? )….but it truly does seem odd to me that those things which Jesus said meant the world to Him do seem to get belittled very often in the lives of those attending things like that in Florida–how much praise and focus goes to things like this?:

Someone happens to not be Charismatic (like those similar to Macarther/others that’re Cessationists)…..and yet they’re out there doing those things Jesus did. Why would that be less of the SPIRIT OF GOD? Or something we shouldn’t run to as easily as many are going to in FLORIDA? For another example, someone recommened to me a ministry run by a Conservative Evangelicals named Chuck Colson. His ministry is not really charismatic but I don’t think they are against it either. They are interdenominational and not tied to any one group. Chuck went to prison during the 70’s as part of the Watergate scandal in the Nixon administration, locked up for several years where he got saved and started this ministry after being released…..and many of his other stances are things which other Charismatics stand for (plus the fact that many of his actions are gifts listed in I Corinthians 12 and Romans 12, such as the gift of Mercy and Leadership and Administration. )

I greatly appreciate the work he does, seeing that Colson’s later life has been spent working with the organization devoted to prison ministry called PRISON FELLOWSHIP ( Prison Fellowship )

• Promoting faith-based prisons to promoting the principles of restorative justice (i.e. an approach to justice focusing on healing broken relationships, repairing the damage done by crime, and restoring the offender to a meaningful role in society, etc),

• stimulated dialogue between victims and offenders in order to facilitate reconciliation,

• Assisting children and families of prisoners…

• Post-prison support through the giving of small start-up loans to qualifying ex-prisoners to enable them to start small businesses–providing a means for them to support their families and lead a productive life within the community

Again, I was HIGHLY impressed—as this seems to be a premier example of simple CHRISTIAN LIVING among those who’re often most forgotten in society—taking the “Gospel of Christ to their side of the street” and seeking to make sure they’re taken care of. It was also refreshing to see the Wilberforce Forum and seeing the Christian Worldview/Advocacy aspect of the ministry, as well as seeing the justice reform efforts done through Justice Fellowship (Justice Fellowship website). Yet how many Charismatics were celebrating the work God was doing through this individual and treating that with the SAME EXCITMENT AS MANY DO WITH FLORIDA? As someone once told me, The gifts of the Spirit have functioned in many prisons fellowships that he was aware of. In the Louisiana Angol Prison they have a thriving prison fellowship run by the prisoners themselves. How much press does this get by many today, irregardless of whether one’s Charismatic or Not?

Being Black Hispanic, it has always been a passion of mine to find ways to make the Gospel CONTEXUALIZED for those on the streets (, (Does anyone here know of any MINORITY/BLACK Emerging Leaders existing?.-TRIBAL CHARISMATIC: Contexualizing the Gospel/Spiritual Gifts among American Indians? —and yet honestly, it was bothersome to me seeing how many of these great healings/wonders in Florida were predominately WHITE CULTURE—-and not much of that’s seen in many Black/Minority Churches that I’m aware of. The issues they deal with are more radical, IMHO, and yet when it comes to those things which all Christians can do such as social work like helping someone pay the rent due to low minimum wage, being a father to the fatherless, and other issues common to minorities, there seems to be less excitment/activism. I haven’t gone to Florida yet, but for me it’s frustrating since there’s enough trouble in Social Work trying to aid those on the streets/Urban Culture….and yet whenever I talk of something God did in that avenue, people seem less passionate for that as I am. Or they’ll say “Well, that’s good and all…..man, Florida’s A TRIP ISN’T IT??!!”.For me, what demonstrates true REVIVAL is that one’s faithful to love the Lord and to LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR (Luke 10:25-37, Matthew 25:31-40)? and that they’re also faithful to this:

Even though I don’t doubt much of what’s happening in Florida with the miracles/wonders are of God, I still have some serious reservations about what happens afterward….for for the purpose behind all of God’s miracles was to INCREASE PEOPLE’S ATTENTION of the GOSPEL and to DO GOOD AMONG MEN (I Corinthians 2 & Acts 2:22, and especially Acts 2:40-47 since that shows a pattern of the FRUIT following any wonders the Apostles did, where people were being added to a community of Believers where the church devoted herself to God and each other through prayer, fellowship, hospitality and radical acts of generousity–with concern for the physical welfare of its poorest members, even if this means others have to sacrifice and give a great deal—being clearly demonstrated. As GENEROUS GIVING.COM said on the issue:

Charismatic or not, is social activism happened not true REVIVAL since one’s doing the things God said bless Him? Even regarding the OLD SKOOL revivals back in the day, I take note of some things. I don’t see them as being less of the Spirit—-but the same, if NOT MORESO.

What to make of the Second Great Awakening (1790-1840s)— the second great religious revival in U.S. history and consisted of renewed personal salvation experienced in revival meetings, alongside major leaders included Charles Finny,Peter Cartwright, Asahel Nettleton, etc.—and was known for how it encouraged an eager evangelical attitude that later reappeared in American life in causes dealing with PRISON REFORM, TEMPERANCE, WOMEN’S SUFFRAGE/RIGHTS, AND THE CRUSADE TO ABOLISH SLAVERY? It was simply amazing witnessing the Political Implications, seeing how In the midst of shifts in theology and church polity, American Christians took it upon themselves to reform society during this period. For Historians stress the understanding common among participants of reform as being a part of God’s plan. And consequently, individual Christians contemplated their roles in society in purifying the world through the individuals to whom they could bring salvation. As Wikipedia said, Interest in transforming the world eventually became reapplied to mainstream political action, as temperance activists, antislavery advocates, and proponents of other variations of reform would seek to implement their beliefs into national politics. While religion had previously played an important role on the American political scene, the Second Great Awakening would highlight the important role which individual beliefs would play, doing much to illuminate issues of faith through present day.

Why SHOULD that be considered less of a TRUE revival than FLORIDA????

What of the The Third Great Awakening, which was a period of religious activism in American history from the late 1850s to the 1900s affecting pietistic Protestant denominations and characterized by a strong sense of social activism and gathering strength from the postmillennial theology that the Second Coming of Christ would come after mankind had reformed the earth and actually acted like “SALT OF THE EARTH” (Matthew 5:12-16,Matthew 5:12-14, Mark 9:49-50 , 1 Peter 2:11-13, Titus 3:1-3 , James 2:15-17 , 1 John 3:16-18).
It’s from here that we have great Christian men such as D.L. Moody, greatly influenced the cause of cross-cultural Christian Missions AND THROUGH WHOM MANY WERE SAVED THROUGH HIS PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL….

and from here we saw the development of The Social Gospel Movement, as did the worldwide missionary movement…..and with Social Gospel Preachers, things such as the rich EXPLOITING THE POOR/GLOATING IN RICHES to were exposed—alongside the help of reformers in the Progressive Era, which was a period of reform which lasted from the 1890s to the 1920s and that fought for things like social justice, general equality and public safety. Other reforms came about that were noteworthy, especially the battles involving child labor, compulsory elementary education and the protection of women from exploitation in factories–plus, the prohibition of alcohol.—and even greater sponsoring/growth of missionary activities in the U.S and around the world…..and of course, who could forget about things like Young Men’s Christian Association (“YMCA” or “the Y“)…..dedicated to replacing life on the streets with prayer and bible study.—?

Why does it seem, however, that this ALONGSIDE THOSE TODAY PROMOTING SUCH THINGS recieves LESS attention/PRESS than the Revival in Florida? Are DOING these kinds of things somehow less of an indicator that someone’s ON FIRE FOR GOD?

Regarding the Lakeland, Florida, I’m reminded of something my friend said on the issue:

Quote:

Well can you give an honest evaluation of the state of the kids when they came home? I went – I didn’t see Todd teaching the worship of angels. It was all about Jesus. The one young woman who went with us was radically impacted for Jesus. Time will tell what fruit has been produced but I was touched by her obvious willingness to share Christ

Good Thoughts——just like with examining the fruit a tree makes and how it takes time for the full fruit of the tree to be manifest, so it is with movements in the name of the Lord. Only when the fruit’s fully manifested and things can be fully seen can one conclude whether or not they were impacted by God (though on some things, one can tell pretty quickly based on when the Word says “If they do this, that means this…”)”

Quote:

Matthew 12 Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.29″Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.30″He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. 33″Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Quote:

Luke 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

Quote:

Luke 6 <H5>A Tree and Its Fruit

 

 

Quote:

43″No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks. The Wise and Foolish Builders 46″Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice.

</H5>

Quote:

j John 15The Vine and the Branches 1″I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5″I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

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Galatians 5:17-23 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

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dEphesians 5:8-108 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)

 

 

Many others besides this….but something which has been of great help to me ( as another Brother well said on the issue)

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We need to start with humility. That is, biblical humility. Luke 14:11. We must recognize ourselves as sinners before the holy God. There is no other place to start.2 Chronicles 7:14– 2 Chronicles 7:13-15/ 2 Chronicles 7 describes who we should be before our God: A Person of God (My People) Humble ourselves Pray and Seek God’s face Turn from our wicked ways To be humble, we must be the opposite of proud. See Psalm 10:4, Psalm 31:23, Proverbs 8:13, Proverbs 11:2, Proverbs 16:18, Proverbs 29:23, Obadiah 1:3, Matthew 23:12, and James 4:6 to start with. 2 Chronicles 12 So, see Isaiah 57:15 to see what God is drawn to. Quote: 15 For this is what the high and lofty One says— he who lives forever, whose name is holy: “I live in a high and holy place, but also with him who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite. “The essential vice, the utmost evil, is Pride. Unchastity, greed, drunkenness, and all that, are mere flea-bites in comparison: it was through Pride, that the devil became the devil: Pride leads to every other vice: It is the complete anti-God state of mind.” C.S. Lewis, Seeking Him, P. 25

The commentator also recommened me an EXCELLENT book called “Seeking Him: Experiencing the Joy of Personal Revival by DeMoss and Grissom.

very promising and if I’m able to get the $$$$$$ for it, would love to investigate—-But Nancy Leigh DeMoss is simply phenomenal, as I read one of her books entitled “BROKENNESS: The Heart God Revives” 3yrs ago at a youth camp before my upcoming Senior Year in Highschool.Brokenness : The Heart God Revives

..and of course, the book was phenemonal to read/really challenged me GREATLY. Ended up discussing it for a good while with others too and seeing MUCH FRUIT as I went through the Bible and began examining what a TRUE REVIVAL SHOULD LOOK LIKE—ONE GOD BEGINS AND WHERE HEARTS ARE CHANGED.

Some other resources which may be helpful
http://www.spirithome.com/fruitssp.html
http://www.spirithome.com/discrnmt.html#hints

An excerpt from one of the resources:

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Quote:The Toronto-related activities were not different in kind than what Finney or Spurgeon or Edwards saw in their times. However, the mark of those great revivals was not the signs and wonders. Those revivals became famous for the way they changed every aspect of the lives of those who came forward. Their new-found faith was manifested : in the way they spent their money, in the way they raised their children, in their concern for the poor, in their opposition to slavery; in their rejection of drunkenness, and sex outside of marriage, in their support of the public rights of women; in their business practices and public administrations, when they are turning away from their own evils; in their community-building activities, and so on. By changing lives, those revivals affected the whole nation, both believers and unbelievers. By that standard, the great number of people in the Blessing should have made a much greater impact.

I’ve said it before elsewhere, but that was very interesting to me, as many who’re for Revival like David and Leonard Ravenhill have spoken on the issue (like with Brownsville/TB )and said the same thing about revival—-if there’s not a transformation in lifestyle, somehthing’s off regarding whether or not it’s a Revival. And though many have been changed in many of the revivals occuring in the 70’s and on, many have also remained the same.
Something else from the site REFRRENCED EARLIER that was a great blessing

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: Quote: 1 Corinthians 12:10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. Discernment is more than just a process. Even for the most ‘material’ or ‘nitty-gritty’ matters, there is a Spirit at work nudging us, leading us, even pulling us by the nose ring. Even for the most ’spiritual’ matters, there are disciplines, methods, processes, means, and tools which the Spirit can work through to help us discern rightly. Discernment isn’t usually a sudden zap from beyond, but something which emerges from hard work. Learn to discern. Yearn to discern. “It is impossible to frame a doctrine of the Holy Spirit by taking all the data indiscriminately and forcing them into the Procrustean bed of a formal system. We have to discriminate between what is true and what is false, … between what is primary and what is secondary, between what is central and what is peripheral;… between testimonies concerning the Spirit which reflect different levels of apprehension, between those which belong to different stages of the divine economy, and between those which have relation to different moments in the dialectic of spirit.” George Hendry, *The Holy Spirit In Christian Theology*, p.13 When the Spirit is on the move, it’s characterized by: Christ-centered spirituality in every aspect of life; Rejection of all prejudice, class/ethnic/educational barriers, exclusiveness, and denominational warfare. When it follows the Spirit, the Body of Believers knowingly chooses to counter-model prejudices by living without regard to them. bringing attention and worship to Jesus Christ, and awareness of God’s/Jesus’/Spirit’s work. an unusual level of passion, energy, or impact. These are the main things to look for in discerning about something: it is governed by love, for if it is not, it’s worthless ( 1 Corinthians 13:1-3); it centers us onto Jesus the Christ and Lord ( 1 Cor 12:3), and His good news; it directs us to Scripture, not away from it ( Isaiah 8:19, 20); it builds up the church and its members ( Ephesians 4:11-12), giving it power, wisdom, character, boldness, and unity. it helps create in us a love of righteousness, a heightened sense of sin, and a turning away from known evil. Quote: “The mystery of Pentecost is that the gift of discernment is breathed into the world, enabling us to see the presence of the divine in the midst of the human — not as an aside or an afterthought, but as the main event of our lives” Jay Rochelle, in *Christian Century*, 22 May 1985, p. 535 ‘Discernment’ is sometimes used as a catch-word for speaking against others (as with some ‘discernment ministries’), or to defeat them in a struggle for power or influence, or just to pick at them until they quit or retreat. Discerning eyes look for whether something that’s labeled ‘discernment’ is done from love, or whether it just is a clanging gong or a noisy cymbal. Jesus didn’t call us to love ideas, he called us to love people. John put it as bluntly as he could : “One who does not love does not know God, for God is love.” (I John 4:8) When discerning, the Christian must keep in mind why he/she is doing it. Ask yourself, “If I raise this issue, how am I pointing people to Christ? How am I helping them grow in the Spirit? In what way am I loving them?” If there’s no answer to those questions, or if you have to stretch far and wide to come up with a complicated or weak answer, then it’s best not to speak. Indeed, it’s time to focus on listening, because it may be your time to learn.

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I think people confuse the issue holiness. Holiness vs the common. Holy people have within them ‘the common’ it is not unholy but just common. So when a Bentley goes BAM!!! it certainly doesn’t appear holy but its not unholy — just common. For the nay sayers its food for the fire but it wouldn’t matter – Bentley isn’t a graduate of a seminary. He isn’t going to have a polished theological approach. It will be holy or common. Personally – I relate to the common. I strive for holy but understand common. Be blessed, andrea

Actually, I was seeing it from the angle of how many people see things which’re UNCOMMON as UNHOLY……the “BAM!!!BAM!!!” gig honestly doesn’t perterb me, as I’ve seen weirder but it was with folks who in their theology were QUITE ORTHODOX/ON POINT…Joseph Garlington being an example, who is the pastor of my pastor (www.libertychurch.org) since his style of preaching’s radically different from many—-sometimes he’ll be speaking a message and then midway or unexpectantly he’ll begin singing his message and including the audience in singing along, and from there worship will happen, and it’s cool seeing his gifted worship ministry has influenced churches of all types and worship styles, charismatic and noncharismatic. Should you do a Google Video Search, you should be able to find some clips of Him).

Smith Wiggleworth ( considered one of the most influential evangelists in the early history of Pentecostalism & also credited with helping give the movement a large religious audience, ), if I recall, once was at a healing ralley and punched someone in a Stomach who had cancer. Folks were shocked (As I was too), but the person got healed and served the Lord…..but that’s not necessarily recorded in the Word—and it’s not something he made into a “gimmick”/regular practice. Same with John G.Lake (though his supporting of William Brahnam on EVERYTHING I’m not cool with—as there were many things he was OFF on and should’ve been called out like his views on the TRINITY, but thankfully agreeing with some things he was for doesn’t equate to my agreeing with the man on EVERY issue just like I don’t agree with Lee Strobel and how he endorsed the “Purpose Driven Life”, despite his wonderful book “Case for Christ”….or Jack Deere, seeing that he associates with Bickle/others from the Kansas City Prophets even though previously his book “Surprised by the Power of the Spirit/The Voice of God” written during his trasition from a die-hard cessationist to one for the Charismatic Gifts was spot on….).

Other things he did also seemed interesting, like When he was forbidden to lay hands on audience members by the authorities in Sweeden and he instead developed a method of “corporate healing”, by which people laid hands on themselves. And as odd as that is, Jesus did odd things too. Spit in a man’s eyes, if I recall (John 9:1-7):

Same thing with with many folks from the Azusa Street Revival (John G. Lake being a notable example)…..and many folks from today like Heidi Baker, whose ministry with the children in Africa has seen some amazing things. Things like not having enough chicken/food to feed and the Lord doing something akin with what happened with Elisha and the Widow (II Kings 4)…..more of it can be found in her book:

Expecting Miracles: True Stories of Gods Supernatural Power and How You Can Experience It, Heidi and Rolland Baker ). People sometimes diss them on the basis that since what often happens in their ministry DIDN’T HAPPEN IN THE NT (had one person say, “So you’re gonna pick and choose from the OT, huh? Do AX HEADS still float around too?)…and the same goes for many of my friends who go out to highschools and have seen folks healed of many things in RADICAL WAYS (David Root actually did a series on the issue….)

And then there’s Jesus Himself

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John 20:30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book..John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

As John explained he had been selective rather than exhaustive in His testimony….and although selective, the truth revealed in John’s Gospel is sufficient to bring anyone to Christ/Faith in the Messiah and Son of God (John 14:26, John 16:13). But I don’t think that means there weren’t other things that Jesus did unrecorded which may’ve been a bit controversial/uncommon. Jesus Himself, if I recall, and others seemed to do healings/meeting needs in ways which seemed to be “odd” (including times where it seemed odd to “command” someone to do something, John 5:7-9
Luke 5:23-25 ,Acts 3:4-6 , Acts 8:6-8, Acts 14:8-10, Acts 28:7-9 ). We have narrative of what happened after they prayed for folks, but in many none of the finer details/descriptions of their facial expressions, energy, gestures, how long they prayed, whether they were low-key or serious, etc. What would that look like today? (and I wonder if many of us would have issue if preachers HAD instances went around doing these things too, as there seemed to be no logicial reason behind why Jesus did it—-plus the fact that it did INITIALLY seem outright nasty, IMHO):
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: Quote: John 9 Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind 1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”3″Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. 4As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” 6Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man’s eyes. 7″Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam” (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing. Quote:

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Quote: Mark 7:30-56 The Healing of a Deaf and Mute Man 31Then Jesus left the vicinity of Tyre and went through Sidon, down to the Sea of Galilee and into the region of the Decapolis.[a] 32There some people brought to him a man who was deaf and could hardly talk, and they begged him to place his hand on the man.33After he took him aside, away from the crowd, Jesus put his fingers into the man’s ears. Then he spit and touched the man’s tongue. 34He looked up to heaven and with a deep sigh said to him, “Ephphatha!” (which means, “Be opened!” ). 35At this, the man’s ears were opened, his tongue was loosened and he began to speak plainly. 36Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone. But the more he did so, the more they kept talking about it. 37People were overwhelmed with amazement. “He has done everything well,” they said. “He even makes the deaf hear and the mute speak.”

Honestly, if Jesus did something as outrageous as this, that makes some pause at the myriad of other crazy things he could’ve done that the WOrd’s silent upon—-Same thing with other things prophets were called to do that seemed pretty outrageous back in the day, such as another mentioned with the issue of Isaiah and what God called him to do at one point:

Even I have some “quirks” on things that would trip some people out—such as the fact that when I’m praying and things begin to come in my mind, I get so excited that I sometimes pace around rapidly like I’m on the “hunt” for something or I may bounce around out of excitment. Being in Track & Field for 6yrs and having so much energy, there have been times when I’ve gotten so excited during a good ol’ fashion prayer meeting that I’ll go outside and simply RUN AROUND due to how much excitment I have (though generally, when I pray, I’m pretty calm/casual about it in praying what the Word says and letting God work). Some people when praying simply say “Hallejuah!!!” or “Thank you JESUS!!!!” ALOT…and others when praying begin acting as if they’re having a conversation with God, saying things like “That’s really cool Lord seeing what you did back in this Scripture—I praise you for that, and for sister Sallly, I pray you do the same…..” Some people shake their heads as if they’re given an “amen” to something or start chuckling to themselves when thinking on the Word of God and how cool it’ll be to see God move or when they think of how faithful/radical He is according to Scripture.

Some people when they’re praying will begin and then stop—as if the Holy Spirit’s saying something to them or they’re pondering something the Word says before praying again—and then they’ll go back to praying or even begin praying something completely different than what was asked for (and often it turns out that the thing they suddenly begin praying was an even GREATER ISSUE). And then again, I’ve also seen people be very quiet/meek when praying AND went straight through—but how powerful were their PRAYERS!!!

Some people when they’re

and on the flip side of things, I’ve also seen kats who were very reserved/smooth and yet when they opened their mouths, EVERY HERESY/ANTI-CHRIST mentality one could possibly think of came right on out—-and you probably would’ve never caught it due to how charismatic/charming they were and able to turn things around so that it seemed like all was cool. Of course, God’s Word talks about that

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:Matthew 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves

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Romans 16 17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. Watch Out for Those Who Lead You Away from the Truth

Of course, the issue isn’t whether or not one’s reserved/casual or eccentric as a sign of godliness/authencity—-but of one’s heart intent and the FRUIT of their actions/teachings that makes the difference….For example, when most people see kats like Jakes, Bynum and numerous others, they seen their preaching styles and methodologies alongside the erroneous doctrines they’ve brought out—-and consequently, go to say that EVERYTHING they did was off. If you’re hollering like they are, you’re simply being emotional. If you’re saying “touch your neighbor and say.___” then you’re working the crowd.

However, I don’t think it’s necessarily an “either or” scenario. For example, One of the most godly/GOSPEL-CENTERED fellowshipS I know of named Epiphany Fellowship once had a preacher teaching on Proverbs 7 and buddy, THE MAN COULD PREACH. But for every holler/scream he did, it was worth it due to how the GOSPEL WAS BEING PLACED FORTH. If the minister when praying started saying “Bam Bam!!!”, I wouldn’t of tripped as the rest of the fruit in his lifestyle would’ve been consistent enough to be cool with—and folks would know where he was coming from.

Nothing wrong, with a preacher who acts very energetic/animated when conducting a sermon (i.e. hoping/hollering, telling the audience “Turn to your neighbor and say……”, using eccentric humor/methods, etc……Being raise around it, I guess I’m used to it, and kind of like it too)…….but when all it is is just HOOP’N and theatrics, I gots a problem..

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For the sake of humor, take note of something:

the way?

For the sake of a laugh:

The commercials with this dude where he walks in and literally a block-party starts with folk yelling “KOOL-AID!!!!” were HILARIOUS!!!! Funny Comical Enough as it is, it can serve to make ya think a bit.

As silly as it’d be for us to trip on the “KOOL AID” dude being “taken out even though he simply spilt some juice/it’s not ESSENTIAL TO LIFE, I wonder at times how often our responses to things are just as comical……”Ok, folks, we don’t want to push folks over due to how some elsewhere did that/that was jacked up….and some folks wrongly seek this thing, so make sure no one falls back at any costs so we don’t encourage it….and try to keep things calm, making certain no one acts crazy (and if it’s people we don’t know, tell em’ to shut up so things won’t seem weird) CRUD!!! Someone fell backward during THE SERVICE!!!! SOMEONE CRYING NON-STOP AND THEY’RE NOT STOPPING!!! SOMEONE DANCED VIBRANTLY DURING THE PRAISE AND WORSHIP!!!!! THEY’RE RUNNING AROUND!!!!! JUMPING/SHOUTING DURING WORSHIP SAYING HALLEJUAH/AMEN!!!!! NOW WE’RE IN SIN!!! THEY’RE POSSESSED/GOING TO HELL!!!! THEY DON’T/WON’T HUNGER TO KNOW GOD ANYMORE, NOR WILL THEY READ THEIR BIBLES AND STUDY TO SHOW THEMSELVES APPROVED, II Timothy 2:15!!!! THEY WON’T BE ABLE TO WITNESS TO THEIR NEIGHBORS/TELL OF THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST!!!!”/ GOD’S NO LONGER SOVEREIGN!!!!!! NEXT, THEY’LL BE THROWING UP EVERYWHERE, CLUCKING OR BARKING LIKE DOGS!!!!!!! (You get the idea….)

Personally (THOUGH some of the things I’ve seen were indeed EXCESSIVE/SCARY), there are other things I’ve witnessed that seemed more low-key even when they were still a bit eccentric..and for a practical example, consider investigating this: http://video.google.com/videosearch?…le&sitesearch= (as this served as a SPRING BOARD for discussing appropiate behaviors at paticular meetings for Believers)

Many haD various feelings on the issue. For example, one kat against it said:
Another also said this:

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As a singer, I can be on the verge of tears when and as I sing to some slow or mid-tempo tracks. I can also display exuberance when performing a fast track and/or one that is particularly rhythmic. The book of Psalms does give NUMEROUS instsances of when praise is given and the types of praise that is offered.Having established this premise, these ridiculous displays seen in church today of shouting, screaming, running, “tongues” and “dancing” to the point of sweating out one’s suit is absolutely pathetic. I distinctly remember walking out of a “service” early over 5 years ago because the pandemonium went on for more than 30 minutes (long before the offering would be collected and the message given). I was already tired of having to stand on my feet for near an hour for “praise and worship” before this hideous display came about. Those “officiating” the “service” were literally egging people on throughout the entire time. I appreciate those that provided a succint argument on this subject. The bible is quite clear on what the standards are. There are just too many in the church that have simply bastardized what otherwise should be a beautiful thing

Others feeling the same said this:

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I am afraid that he, and those like him, will show the same exact behavior at a church member’s funeral.“Oh, he graduated! He’s with the Lord!” Jump up and down and shout Hallelujah! Sing a rousing victory song. Yes, they certainly may be with the Lord; but why did the disciples make great lamentation for him at his death and burial in Acts 8? They were filled with the Spirit. Didn’t they know how to whoop it up over his victory? They knew for certain Stephen was with the Lord. After all, just moments before he proclaimed that he saw the heavens opened with Jesus standing (in honor, I believe). That was a glorious martyrdom, but his loss was keenly felt. Tabitha in Acts 9 had all the widows weeping at her death. Her loss was keenly felt. A Christian’s death should be mourned, not celebrated. They’re dead and you’ve lost a valuable member of the Body. Ok, I got off topic, but these strangenesses are related in Charismatics way too much. It’s an embarrassment. It is modeled by these flash and fire pastors who keep their people mesmerized by histrionics when they preach rather than teaching and modeling truth. One of the best definitions of salvation that ever came into my mind was that salvation makes you normal. It is what is meant by God in Ezekiel 36 “I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.”God gives us a heart of flesh, meaning He restores normal humanity after repentance, without the stoniness of sin any more – childlikeness without childishness. So, I look for normalcy in people claiming salvation. No excessive or unnatural ways about them like this fellow showed. Christians should have a mature sense of occasion and keep it…. In the charismatic churches, the decorum of their services range from occasionally exuberant praise to relative quietness. They’re generally not much different than services in nearby Methodist or Baptist churches. The preaching is expository, or topical and is understandable. The hyper-charismatic ones have the screeching preachers who can’t make two consecutive sentences without a sharp “Hunh!” They run around the stage gesturing wildly while their congregations get increasingly excited. There is cheap, staccato organ music punctuating every dramatic utterance of the preacher. The sermons are prooftexts strung together incongruously about receiving power and fire and breakthrough and deliverance. The Spirit has more focus than the Father in Heaven. They are much more likely to have women bishops and apostles than regular charismatic churches. They are the kind that would whoop it up at funerals. I even have an example of this. A nurse friend of mine, who now attends a local Methodist church, went to a funeral some years ago for the mother of a co-worker. The viewing was held in a holiness/charismatic church . Their raucous hollering, praising and dancing in front of the coffin unnerved my friend completely. She wanted to run out of there. Even though she had attended charismatic churches throughout her earlier life, she had never witnessed anything like that. Her evaluation of them was “They’re nuts.” It’s these kinds of things that cause me to make a distinction between charismatics and hyper-charismatics.

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I think the video is kind of funny. I do see all of the points that people have made about this kind of behavior. There is some validity in everyone’s response, but I don’t take this kind of stuff seriously. When it comes down to “emotionalism in the church”, everybody has their own way in expressing themselves. Now, there is a difference betwen expressing how you truly feel, as opposed to expressing yourself, because this is how the church is TELLING YOU to do this, in order to be “anointed(this word is a whole other story). Coming from a Pentecostal background, I enjoy the music, hand-clapping, and the foot-stomping. The Bible does talk about “praise through instruments and dance”. As a dancer, I think dance is a spiritual journey, whether it’s in church or not. What I don’t like are the mind-games that people in the church play on people to dominate people’s emotions. For example:”Touch your neighbor and say neighbor, God’s got a blessing for you, just dance on it”. “10 seconds of praise music, then it cuts off—–Alright ya’ll, we have to move one”. “The Lord is sending a money cloud over our way, let’s praise our way into our blessing”. LOL!!! I can go on and on and on. There is so much “self” involved in all of this “priming and pumping”, that people don’t even know why they are doing all of this. If you are not careful, you could fall into the trap of being a “mindless church zombie”.

Others, however, said in defense:

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I was thinking about that this morning while I was on the elliptical machine this morning at the gym. I was listening to my praise music on my mp3 player. I just began to thank the Lord for all He is in my life and well to just praise Him. Not in a loud wild way, I was singing quietly where my neighbor could probably hear me. Was I too loud , or too public with my worship? I don’t think so but some may have been offended . I’m not sure I really didn’t care.Was I doing it to bring attention to myself, of course not. Who wants to see a out of shape sweaty brother singing Chris Tomlin songs. I have no doubt some may think my place of worship was inappropriate. Maybe others think I shouldn’t raise my hands in worship in public. I guess my point is we should we be careful at judging others motives when it comes to something as personal as worship/praise.

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I understand your criticism of this brother; however, how do we define “normalcy in people claiming salvation?” For example, if a person cried everyday for a year after the death of a loved one-would that be considered normal? What if they cried everyday for two years (2 hours per day)? How do we determine what is “normal” human behavior? Also, what would a mature sense of occassion have looked like in this case? Moreover, what objective would have been used to measure it? By the way, I am not affirming the behavior exhibited in the video (lol).

On adressing the question of what’s normal, one person responded back:

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@ PreacherK. The Bible defines certain aspects of the emotional life in humans as being wrong: Excessive affection, unnatural affection, and past feeling, (callous). These are all abnormal effects of sin on the soul. They are in various degrees in all of us because of sin and the general corruption of humanity.I don’t have some sort of yardstick to determine, say, how much grief is normal. The person’s overall behavior and personality would have to be taken into account in order to determine if his grief was normal. People who are given to excessive affections may very well display excessive grief. People who are past feeling may exhibit little to no grief. People with unnatural affections would whoop it up at a funeral. I selected the word “normal” deliberately, and not “typical” or “usual” because it comes from the word “norm” which means “standard” or “natural.” God’s Word is our “norm” or “standard.” He tells us how we are to live. Even about grief, we are commanded not to grieve as the others who have no hope. So, God’s word places a reasonable limit on even that tremendous emotion. He does not want it excessive, otherwise, He would not have mentioned it in His word. “Normal,” is something I think people know when they see it. The man in the video was clearly demonstrating unnatural affection because his behavior was unnatural to the occasion. Everyone, including his poor bride, was aware of it but him. I ask myself where he got that. Maybe it was his own personality aberration; but I believe his church and/or denomination is responsible. I know I can’t prove that his reaction to the trigger phrase “the power of the Holy Spirit” came from his church, but, if I were a gambling person, I’d bet the farm on it. My big concern about this issue of normalcy is not so much about the individuals in the churches who have extreme or strange traits; it’s more about what they’re being taught and how they’re being handled by leadership. In my experience, some people that are undisciplined or out-of-control are given platforms of ministry by the pastors because that is the way the pastors are too.

To a degree, I can see where everyone’s coming from. As with many others, I’m grieved by the general lack of discernment exercised by many of our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ– many of whom may be sincere in their efforts even though they are misguided..and IMHO, it’s our responsibility to humbly challenge their claims on biblical and theological grounds. Unfortunately, the attitude that many of us display, including myself from time to time, prevents us from engaging them in meaningful and edifying conversations. Also, Granted that ORDER/DISCIPLINE are things within the Word of God during meetings of a significant kind…1 Corinthians 14:26-33 (Orderly Worship)

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33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

Everything done in worship services must be done in harmony/with order beneficial to the worshippers. This principle touches every aspect–singing, preaching, and the exercise of spiritual gifts.
Those contributing to the service (singers, speakers, readers) must have love as their chief motivation….and must do things in a way that will strengthen the faith of other believers……

When there’s chaos, the church is not allowing God to work among believers as He would like…..but regardless of disagreements I may have on things, for me it wasn’t something to make into a matter of “RIDE OR DIE” (as they say on the streets), nor is it one where folks need to go to war over

When it comes to many saying of Lakeland “The Gospel’s NOT BEING PREACHED THERE, some have said completely different on the issue. One person I interacted with had this to say:

I was very apprehensive about Bentley. Most of my friends were very surprised when I said – I had left for Florida. I have not been to Brownsville or Toronto. I never travel for ‘eye candy’. I was very apprehensive about ‘emma’ and the root of this revival but I’d rather go and have my pride hurt then not go – have my pride intact and miss a move of God. He has always kept me and I put my faith in Him.

The best thing about Lakeland is that its sooo not about Bentley. Those people going up with testimonies are coming from the crowd. I watched people get out of their wheelchairs. I also saw many try and not. I heard the people hollering “I’m healed” and Jesus got the glory. Not Bentley – in fact I was thinking maybe God was using him bc its pretty hard to think too kindly about someone whose been to jail for child molestation.
Personally — my friend was healed (powerful) but she has been bogged down in her spirtiual life with unforgiveness for the family that abused her daughter. It is significant for me that she received her healing and while there it was prophecied over her that she would not move in the gifts the Lord had given her until she forgave these people.
{{she had gone down to pray for a man in a wheelchair and I saw her on the floor crying – when she came back she said “I went to pray for him and he told me my whole life and that she was in unforgiveness”}}
I wonder how many others are stuck in unforgiveness toward their abusers and having this man touch them sooo powerfully is forcing them to rethink their own walk.
The most difficult time in my own life was to forgive the person who abused my own daughter. I know that I would not grow in Him until I could get past that.

I pray, really, that they make sure he does not reoffend and that he too realizes he is not special – that God is using him bc he is nothing. Few people get exposed like this and are then put in this kind of position. He will come under more attack bc he is moving in the Lord then if he just stayed in his own little world.

Most of us will never know what it is like to walk in ‘His’ power and have the devil go after you with everything he has bc of the work of the Lord. Bentley can expect to be ridiculed and publically humiliated for his past. I would suggest he knows what is coming. The bigger this gets the more likely his past will be all over Fox. CNN, CBS etc etc.
There is no reason to give the devil the glory for revival, nor do we need to give credit to Bentley – it is a God thing. Bentley or someone else – God will raise up someone but it should always be someone who people won’t think is infallible bc we all know what happens when our eyes get on the man and not on the Lord.

I have been edified and renewed in my faith, my church is on fire as are others – the Lord is being lifted and men are being drawn to Him, certainly not to Bentley.
I pray the Lord gives him the strength to endure the trials to come

The gospel is given – and some teaching. Most of it is about the healings and testimonies. Christ is being glorified for it so I can’t imagine why this particular complaint. Only bc there isn’t enough time to do everything well. The two – three hours that Bentley is on TV are not the whole of what happens. It takes a lot of time to go through the people and get them on stage etc etc. His teaching isn’t memorable. The gospel comes with signs and wonders and Bentley takes no credit. A few times he did things or said things that I thought ut oh! that will be on Youtube. Nothing real bad but he is certainly a character.

The offering isn’t mentioned until 11:30 (when many 20-25%) have left. There is no hawking CDs and books and few tables. No charge for parking and when the offering is taken there is not a lot of ’seed talk’. No pushing for money – in fact when Bentley mentioned credit cards – he suggested that people not go into debt.

 

Regarding what I do know of the cross being proclaimed, the lady behind this quote  said it best: The whole of what’s happening in the Revival down there isn’t what’s in the clips or on the camera. One of my friends went down there and according to the testimony he gave, the majority of the revivals is the fact that people are witnessing to numerous others on their own time. He went down there to check it out—and though his friends were doing one thing, there were numerous times he and many others went out to tell others who Christ was—Why he came, Why he had to die, His blood being shed, God loving them like John 3:16 says, etc. And then, when people came to the revival, it was already expected that they’d be up to date with things since they’d already been informed. Indeed, Bently has apparently told people what the revival’s not about him and that they don’t need to focus on him—-and for that matter, he even encouraged people to know that unless they went out and witnessed to people about the power of Christ and who He was, there’s no point even coming to the meetings. He also encouraged people to exercise their giftings if they were following the Lord and to pray for one another regarding healings/prophetic words and things. He wanted them to go out and preach the Gospel. My friend also alerted me to the fact that of course many went down there for the WRONG REASONS—-”faking it”, choreographed “slain in the spirit” aND TRYING to work things up…..and that bothered him. Regardless, though, he also made clear that it wasn’t like that for everyone going there—just like with anything, there was a “mixture”–TARES and WHEAT placed together. And one would have to go on a case-by-case basis when examining the issue since many unbelievers have been tripped out/impacted for the Lord. And they all the sincere believers who went down there had their unique stories of the wonderful things the Lord did for them, just as it’s been for me when I went to the “CALL” and from all the wonderful things I’ve witnessed the Lord do in my life that many still may not believe. I’ve brought this up before, if you remember ( #48, #49— http://www.christiandiscussionforums…08#post2783108), with the individual who was a homosexual and got impacted by folks like that in Florida–and came to know the Gospel of Jesus saves.

Moreover, people saw that part of the witnessing was in the fact of telling others of those who had gifts in healings/working wonders and to check it out—-and when they came, seeing things happen out of the ordinary got their attention/tripped them out. Preaching on how Christ came to deal with the physical was apart of opening them up to the Spiritual….and to a degree, that’s how it was with Christ.

Someone once said this:

My response: Why did they get excited when Jesus came in town or the apostles? Or flock to him?

Q

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When people hear of the miraculous, they naturally flock to wherever it occurs. They’re looking for something real/divine to connect to….and many of them have indeed found that in many revivals (Jonathan Edwards being one of them during the GREAT AWAKENING/OTHER Similar occurances). And seeing that many in the body of CHrist have been specifically gifted in gifts of healings/working wonders and you knew about it, I don’t think it’d be wrong to seek them out and prayerfully be benefited by that gift—–and moreover, regarding manifestations of the SPirit and some being bothered by it if it can’t be found in I Corinthians 12, there were various ways the Spirit showed up in SCRIPTURE and perhaps that can be adressed (: #29 #28 )

Of course, there needs to be caution since even false prophets can do the same thing (seemingly—though the key in telling the difference is whether or not the prophet’s miracles point one CLOSER TO CHRIST/THE GOSPEL or away—-Deuteronomy 13 & Deuteronomy 18, II Peter 2, Matthew 7, WHICH SAYS BY THEIR FRUIT ONE WILL KNOW THEM AS TRUE OR FALSE).—annd ultimately, PEOPLE’S HEARTS ARE THEIR OWN RESPONSIBILITY, just as it would be if genuine BIBLICAL teaching of the WOrd took place but some in attendance came and didn’t convert. That’s not a reflection on the teaching OR THE teacher 24/7

       To anyone who thinks that my stance regarding those who are supportative of Bently is being too “nice”, wanted to throw this out there. , on the issue of being “nice”, need to be clear that’s not what I’m advocating (i.e. “niceness” for it’s own sake—-or that equals to being loving). never thought people should try to be “NICE” on the issue…..”NICE” (”dainty”, “attractive”, and “KIND” (having a sympathetic nature”, “considerate”…….what the Bible advocates) are 2 different things…..

And though the Bible doesn’t advocate “Niceness”, it does promote being “Pleasant” when dealing with issues of correction/dealing with fault:

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Proverbs 16:24 24 Pleasant words are a honeycomb, Sweet to the soul and healing to the bones.

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Proverbs 16:21 21 The wise in heart are called discerning, And pleasant words promote instruction.

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Proverbs 25:15 15 Through patience a ruler can be persuaded, And a gentle tongue can break a bone.

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2 Corinthians 10:1 [ Paul's Defense of His Ministry ] By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” when away!

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Galatians 6 Doing Good to All 1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him GENTLY. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, 5for each one should carry his own load. ……”

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Philippians 4:5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.

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Colossians 3:12

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Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Colossians 3:11-13

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1 Timothy 3:2-4 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect.

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1 Timothy 6:11 [ Paul's Charge to Timothy ] But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 1 Timothy 6:10-12 (

Perhaps it’d be beneficial if the orders/terminology for describing Christian behavior we’ve been given in Scripture on how to relate to others are clearly and Biblically defined so that all are on the same page. Granted, as the Word says plainly,

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“Therefore each of you must put off all falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body.” (Ephesians 4:25)

For that matter, there’s indeed a TIME and a PLACE for sharp rebuke. But again, I’d maintain what was the OVERALL CHARACTER/TEACHING that Paul was dealing with here in Crete that warranted SHARP REBUKE? Unless that’s clearly identified, using that as a label ineffective. Again, in historical context, there was a specific teaching/group of people that were being dealt with here——and for a good start, Instruction Concerning False Teachers in the Church (Titus 1:10-16), False Teachers) . Also, for that matter,

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Proverbs 12:1 1 Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, But he who hates correction is stupid. Proverbs 12:15 15 The way of a fool seems right to him, But a wise man listens to advice. Proverbs 15:31-33 31 He who listens to a life-giving rebuke will be at home among the wise. 32 He who ignores discipline despises himself, but whoever heeds correction gains understanding. 33 The fear of the LORD teaches a man wisdom, [a] and humility comes before honor. Proverbs 16:20 20 Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers, and blessed is he who trusts in the LORD. Proverbs 25:12 12 Like an earring of gold or an ornament of fine gold is a wise man’s rebuke to a listening ear. Proverbs 27:5-6 5 Better is open rebuke Than hidden love. 6 Wounds from a friend can be trusted, But an enemy multiplies kisses

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“Be completely humble and gentle; being patient, bearing with one another in love…… (Ephesians 4:2)

No one is ever going to be perfect here on Earth (something seemingly ignored at the moment by many), so we must accept and love other Christians in spite of their faults. Moreover, from what I understand, Concerning faults in fellow believers, we should be HUMBLE (meek…..not self-exalting, smug, rude, proud, condescending, boastful, easily angered ….and everything opposite of what love for Brethren is I Corinthians 13:1-7), patient and gentle with them (John 13:34-35). So, what does it mean to be GENTLE? Or PATIENT? Or LONG-SUFFERING AND HUMBLE?

Or what to make of this?
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James 3 Taming the Tongue 1Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check. 3When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. 4Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. 5Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell. 7All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, 8but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. 9With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. 11Can both fresh water and salt[a] water flow from the same spring? 12My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. Two Kinds of Wisdom 13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition/self, there you find disorder and every evil practice. 17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.

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Heavenly Versus Demonic Wisdom 13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

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To be clear again, where do you see in the Word where there was a 100% track record of those being of the Lord not having flaws in their own lives or ministries—-OT or NEW? What of Gideon? Samson? Jehosophat? And numerous others—not to mention Peter (who got it right one moment in acknowledging Christ as He was and then the next being called out when Jesus said in Matthew 16

“Matthew 16:23
Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”Matthew 16:22-24 (in Context) Matthew 16 —-or the issue with the Judaizers in Galatians 2 where Peter was opposed by Paul? Did that make him SUSPECT to never being of the Lord, sis)

One kat I know of said this to me:

. Please note that false prophets are not only those who prophesy what is not going to happen, but those who prophesy correctly (or even wonder workers, who do real wonders) but then lead the people away from the true and living God. (Deuteronomy 13: 1-5). One of the problems with the false prophets today, within the church, is that they have the right language. This is the nature of a wolf, dressed up as a sheep. He says the right kinds of words, but let’s unpick the meaning. Bro Todd speaks about angels, but what kind of angels; heaven, but what kind of heaven; Jesus, but which Jesus?

Of course we understand that false prophets can deliever true prophecies as well. But for more clarity, See this and let me know what you think….(as it may give more understanding as to where I’;m coming from ( #86 –INCLUDING THE ENTIRE ISSUE WITH DEUTERONOMY 13, plus Deuteronomy 18). Also, regarding wolves, WOLVES PREY ON PEOPLE—-they manipulate, damage, and destroy individuals. That said, it has yet to be made clear how TODD fits the BILL when the fruit of many’s QUITE DIFFERENT from that. Moreover, in line with the characteristcis of what a wolf ULTIMATELYdoes in DENYING/TURNING PEOPLE AWAY FROM THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, how has TODD DONE THIS? This has yet to be made clear, and until that happens, the label may not be warranted.

To repeat, there needs to be a distinction between INTENTIONALLY LEADING OTHERS ASTRAY FROM THE GOSPEL/TOWARD ONESELF (as a WOLF DOES) and SIMPLY BEING DECIEVCED/INCOMPLETE IN THEIR KNOWLEDGE. If teaching something false is what makes someone a false teacher, then what of the times when we were teaching something that we genuinely believed to be the truth of God’s Word and were sincerly doing so to please the Lord, but later came to realize that what we were teaching wasn’t really what a paticular text meant? Or that the application of what we were teaching was flawed? Again, WHAT DO WE MAKE OF THIS??

Something another said on the issue which I thought was very beneficial (the original author’s words in BLUE….although it
s on another named Patricia King and Joshua Mills from “EXTREME PROPHETIC”…..but still seems applicable since it ties into things regarding Bently, as seen in the video on Youtube called “Sapphire Dust and Oil From Heaven!”)

Something another said on the issue which I thought was very beneficial (the original author’s words in BLUE….although it
s on another named Patricia King and Joshua Mills from “EXTREME PROPHETIC”…..but still seems applicable since it ties into things, as seen in the video on Youtube called “Sapphire Dust and Oil From Heaven!”)

I beseech you to use caution and discretion when judging these “false” signs and wonders. You cannot quote Matthew 24:24 and then accuse Latter-Rain teachers like Patricia King and Joshua Mills of using “glitter from Wal-Mart” to deceive their followers using “sleight of hand.” There are two problems with this:

1) If you were to know some folks, as I do, that are involved in this movement, you will realize most of them are not “fakers” but are sincere, genuine, honest, God-loving people (who are sincerely deceived that what they are experiencing is from God). To blanket all of them as being deceivers is not only passing unbiblical judgment, but also serves to strengthen their own “strong delusion” when they “suffer persecution” from the “weaker brethren” (that’s how they perceive us);

2) Much (not all) of what is now being “manifested” at these neo-prophetic meetings is NOT a cheap stage trick. I also once thought such reports were primarily the result of clever illusion, but after several years’ of ongoing research into these “second generation” signs and wonders (and getting “uninvited” from teaching at a former church due to the pastor’s unwillingness to publish the truth), I’m convinced that much of what is now being “released” in many of these neo-prophetic meetings is the work of deceiving spirits, under the guise of what they call the “manifest presence of God.” Leaders in this movement “seem to know” the gospel, but at the root of many of their “miracles” is a counterfeit Spirit that is building an ecumenical church of Antichrist based on the sensational and experiential (Matthew 7:20-23).

This is disturbing, but not at all surprising, when you consider that similar “signs” have been happening for centuries under Catholicism and other cults: (tears, oil, gold dust, etc.). Some have been faked, to be sure; others have been unexplained, including “genuine” miracles of healings at various Marian shrines, for example (not Benny-Hinn style, psychosomatic and/or staged “healings”). So, I simply encourage my concerned brothers and sisters in Christ to excercise biblical discernment in love, realizing that genuine believers (not just followers of Oprah and “The Secret”) can and are being deceived by an “angel of light,” which is no laughing matter to be mocked and ridiculed. Instead, we would do well to follow the Apostle Paul’s example:

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“Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears” (Acts 20:31).

 

For those of you who research, the roots of the Kingdom-Now movement of which Patricia King is a part, go back to the Latter Rain heresy and other influences of the mid-19th century (but of course extend back to the Garden). One of Patricia King’s friends and co-ministers in the Neo-Apostolic and Neo-Prophetic movement, Todd Bentley, claims he “heals” using the same angel as William Branham (a misogynist and pyramidologist) which Branham acknowledged was NOT the Holy Spirit, and that he could not heal “unless his angel shows up.”

Increasingly, unholy spirits are indeed appearing thru “portals” at these meetings (as they have been to New Age cultists for decades, as well as to Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White, William Branham, and to pagans in every tribe and culture for millenniums before that). Discerning believers recognize that the messages and manifestations of these spirits parallels the teachings and types of experiences being communicated to and through the New Spirituality movement. To believe that these deceiving spirits (2 Corinthians 11:13-15) only actually appear (in visions, trances, etc.) to non-believers in “cults” is a lie as equally devastating as the messages these deceiving spirits convey.

If only those outside the church could be deceived, why would our Lord warn us repeatedly, “take heed that no one deceive you” and that “many shall come in my name…and deceive many.” While Jesus certainly knew some would deceive with “glitter from Wal-Mart,” I think he was speaking of something a little more convincing than mere trickery. Which is all the more reason to “prove all things,” pray, study, watch, evangelize, disciple, and above all, to look up.

There have been (and no doubt, continue to be) many fakes and frauds in certain charismatic circles. But using ridicule and condescension (as is all too popular and easy to do in blogs) to “rebuke” those brothers and sisters who are victims of deception raises several concerns:

1) your speech is not seasoned with grace (Col 4:5-6), nor is it edifying to the body (Eph 4:29). Considering the principle of rebuking heresy and restoring a brother or sister, you are out of order:

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“Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted” (Gal 6:1).

 

 

 

 

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Again, responding in pride and immaturity to false teaching does a disservice to the discernment community, and only serves to add fuel to the fire for those deceived by this movement.

2) to clarify again, Matthew 24:24 is not primarily a warning against FRAUDULENT signs and wonders (which would not be truly “great” at all) but spiritual COUNTERFEITS at least on par with those of Pharoah’s magicians (Exodus 7:11).

3) the noteworthy aspect of increasing reports of supernatural “signs and wonders” (not simply “fakes” and “fools gold”) is that the Lord Christ Jesus warned that such would be a preeminent sign of his soon return (Matthew 24:4).

4) furthermore, we ought not to be so arrogant as to assume we are exempt from being deceived ourselves (Prov 16:18, 1 Cor 10:12). As an example, consider Simon Peter’s admirable and accurate profession of faith in Matthew 16:16, and then the Lord’s scathing rebuke of him a few verses later (Matthew 16:23).

4) remember that the Apostle Paul “ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears” (for THREE YEARS!) about the apostasy attacking the church from within (Acts 20:29-31).

So again, in issuing a biblical rebuke to false teachers within the body, we ought not to ridicule those being deceived any more than we should mock unbelievers on the broad road to destruction—but rather, weep and warn in grief and humility as did the Apostle Paul.

5) in conclusion, discernment and “judging righteous judgment” (John 7:24) is serious business that requires conviction, courage, accuracy, and maturity; but those who seek only to take careless or unloving potshots need not apply.

The Apostle Paul speaks to every heart when he writes,
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For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith…. Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits” (Romans 12:3,16).

With this in mind, Patricia King and her many associates and disciples are certainly in need of loving rebuke and biblical correction, but she and the victims of such “signs” that this movement promotes (whether fakes or demonic counterfeits—and for that matter, even things which may be genuine and point people to Christ) deserve not scorn but Christ-like pity, compassion, and prayers for their understanding, repentance, and deliverance.

 

 

 

All of that I thought was very much on point. However, someone else had this to say:

All that’s valid, of course. But again, if we’re going to be biblically faithful, then one has to adress the question of whether or not ALL ERRORS ARE IN THE SAME CATEGORY (and in any case, there was a SPECIFIC type of group of those decieved that were treated a paticular way).

If  we’re going to be biblically faithful, then one has to adress the question of whether or not ALL ERRORS ARE IN THE SAME CATEGORY (and in any case, there was a SPECIFIC type of group of those decieved that were treated a paticular way).

I asked this of you before—and it was never adressed. Now’s your chance (and hopefully, it’ll be tackled this time, as I’ve done my research—- False Teachers being a good place to start).

In the epistle to Titus, there were false teachers there which were doing much damage and Titus was told to rebuke them sharply:

Titus 1

However, in the fellowship where Timoty was stationed, there were false teachers there as well…and yet Timothy was given instructions on how to deal with the situation as well

II Timothy 2

Again, both fellowships were involving false teachers…..and my question is—in light of the popular statment that all false teachers/those holding to their teachings were always severely denounced, why does there seem to be a distinction if false teachers are always supposed to be labeled ONE WAY ONLY (i.e. with sharp words, harsh terminology, etc)? What to make of the situation where Timothy was told to GENTLY instruct those opponents who opposed him? Could it be possible that not all error or behavior is in the same category and that differing levels of error warrant differing levels of rebuke/action?

If teaching something false is what makes someone a false teacher, then what of the times when we were teaching something that we genuinely believed to be the truth of God’s Word and were sincerly doing so to please the Lord, but later came to realize that what we were teaching wasn’t really what a paticular text meant? Or that the application of what we were teaching was flawed?

Were we false teachers then when we had less understanding on an issue?

My understanding is that the FALSE TEACHERS IN CRETE were of a ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CATEGORY than those in TIMOTHY’S AREA and thus subject to a whole different set of rules because the degree of ERROR was not in the same level.

With the teachers in CRETE, they had a BAD REPUTATION EVEN AMONG UNSAVED FOLKS!!!!

That’s significantly different than a teaching in Scripture such 3such as “Jesus already came back” which can be damaging since it’s not biblical and leads to discouragement and yet not lead to someone committing ALL OUT IMMORALITY AS THHE FALSE TEACHERS IN CRETE (who were the INFAMOUS JUDAZIERS, and literally teaching ANOTHER GOSPEL ALL TOGETHER…AS WELL AS RISING RIOTS AGAINST THE APOSTLES, among other actions as well) by the way) did

Again, WHAT DO WE MAKE OF THIS??

Moreover, Someone once said this to me when it came to the issue of what defines a false teacher/prophet:

I studied those passages, and in every one of them what seemed more apparent than anything else was not the mere inaccuracy of these men….but their CHARACTER BEHIND THE WORDS

In Jeremiah 14:13-16, it’s very clear from the text that these prophets were not in the same category of error as Nathan was. Nathan was not accurate in what he said to David the first time (though he honestly may’ve thought, as brother Link pointed out, that perhaps there was no need to consult God and that the Lord was cool), but his mistake in accuracy was sincere and when checked on it, he later went back to the brother/changed his stance. With those prophets, though, they were BLANTANTLY GOING AGAINST THE LORD.

Like many (though not all, IMHO) of the same “prophets” within the “Prophetic/Apostolic” movement (and I know cause one of my sisters in the Lord is constantly sending me emails from the “Elijah List” ), THESE men were prophesying/saying EXACTLY WHAT THE PEOPLE WANTED TO HEAR. It wasn’t about preaching and teaching what was in line with the standards GOD HAD ALREADY MADE CLEAR but the PEOPLE WERE WILLFULLY IGNORING…..but about what would make everyone happy. Jeremiah was preaching/prophesying according to the WORD OF GOD….and everything he said in the name of the Lord was ALREADY IN LINE WITH THE JUDGEMENTS THE LORD HAD MADE CLEAR repeatedly WOULD HAPPEN TO THE NATION THAT REBELLED AGAINST HIM.

Deuteronomy 28-31, I Kings 8:22-66, I Kings 9, II Chronicles 6:12-42, II Chronicles 7

Same thing happened with the myriad of prophets (i.e. Joel, Issaih, Hosea, etc) who basically–even in indicating what was or what was not of God’s heart/agenda for either the moment or the future—said what was in line with the Character of God He already made clear in His law continually (reading a Chronological Bible really helped me see how many of the prophecies given were actually back to back, so the people had no excuse)

Same with Jeremiah 23, whch seens to indicate very clearly what the signs are of a false prophet. They may appear to speak God’s message but they don’t live according to his principles. They water down God’s message in order to make it more palatable. They encourage their listeners, often subtly, to DISOBEY GOD….and they tend to be arrogant and self serving, appealing to the desires of their audience instead of being true to the Word of God. In my understanding, this is consistent with the standards that God gives for false teachers and prophets in the NT….(II Peter 2), which seemd to focus not soley or even so much on whether or not they said all the right things 24/7 since even false teachers can do that/one can do all of that and still be lost (Matthew 7:21-29, Luke 6:43-49, James 1:29-27), but on the fruit of their ministries….GREED, DISHONESTY, LACK OF HUNGER TO KNOW THE WORD OF GOD, IMMORALITY–ESPECIALLY OF THE SEXUALLY IMMORAL KIND (as often is the case, IMHO, that those who’re seeking the Lord can truly walk in purity), etc…..

Add in Ezekiel 13

The people mocked Jeremiah because he brought nothing but NEWs of God’s judgement….but it was the TRUTH REVEALED IN GOD’S LAW (which none took to heart)

Same thing with Jeremiah 28. Hanniah did more than make a simple mistake in accuracy. God’s people were already in EXILE (with people such as Ezekiel already preaching to them the reason why they’d be….and in the book of II Kings, there were plenty of warnings that the same would happen to them as it did with her sister nation Israel…II Kings 17).

Hanniah came up with a prophecy EVERYBODY LIKED and that wasn’t consistent with what God had already made clear would happen in the Law when people rebelled. He declared God—despite His people not repenting—would soon bring relief to those in Exile in Bablylon from their problems and oppressors. His words were DECIETFUL and brought a false hope and comfort to the people. Jeremiahs predictions, however, were already coming true…….which again, were already in line with previous relevelation from what they had as the Word.

He was a true prophet because he spoke and was sold out to the TRUTH. Hanniah, however, was not….and it was REBELLION TO THE LORD. That’s why God got so hot when the prophets were preaching that the Jews would be able to go home soon when the reality was that God had made clear that they needed to hear what they didn’t want to hear—that they were to be DISCIPLINED/ needed to get unpacked and settle down cause they weren’t going nowhere for a GOOD BIT (70 yrs)—-and the false prophets were inciting a false hope to the people and a way out of recieving justice (Jeremiah 29

IMHO, honest mistakes/error wasn’t the real issue…….and I’ve seen many people who preached solid truth—HOLINESS, THE UGLINESS OF SIN, THE SERIOUSNESS OF GOD’S WRATH AND THE SALVATION THAT IS FOUND IN CHRIST—and even spoken against false teachings/doctrines not rooted in the word that many have done in the Lord’s name—yet there were PLENTY of areas in which they were off. They’ve called out false prophets/teachers and are seeking to build people up in the faith as Jude makes clear…..and are living mightigly for the Lord, but there are many areas in blantant error.

Many also have given many words prophetically in my life/others that were 100% spot on EVERYTIME. Did they make mistakes? Yes…..and were there times when they thought they heard the Lord on something and spoke it to others but later realized it wasn’t right/repented? Of course……

But the character of the prophet is more important than his charisma—-
Hence, that’s why I asked my earlier question of “How is what’s happening in Florida being contrary to the Basic Message of the GOSPEL?” For others have brought this up to me—-and though there are a myriad of false teachings everywhere, does a false teaching equate with a FALSE GOSPEL?

as a quick answer, one of the main things I see is the issue of the fruit people seem to come back with. Many recieved healings that tripped them out/caused them to seek the Lord more than ever before, with them getting involved in the things God said were of importance to Him—- THAT said, as asked before, Have those believers believing Florida to be valid not love the Lord and are they denying the ESSENTIALS of the GOSPEL? Even for folks who haven’t gone to these meetings, does their believing it to be a non-issue mean they’re not faithful to love the Lord and to LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR (Luke 10:25-37, Matthew 25:31-40)? Or that they’re not faithful to this

Again, one of the things that has come to my attention from others is this: IF THE GOSPEL’S BEING PREACHED, THAT MUCH I CAN REJOICE IN (Philippians 1:15-18), regardless of whether or not there’s excess, wrong motives, or anything else. Same thing with this:something else which has been brought to my attention is the following:

In this case, some think Jesus was saying that neutrality toward Him was possible…..but nevertheless, his followers will not all resemble each other or belong to the same groups. People who are on Jesus’s side have the same goal of building up the kingdom of God and they should not let their differences interfere (providing those differences aren’t essential). Those who share a common faith in Christ should be cooperated with…….& People don’t have to be just like us to be following Jesus with us.

In light of that, how does this tie in with Lakeland–specifically, the reports of numerous individuals who weren’t saved coming to the meetings and having demons cast out of them? Or who were watching from T.V, heard Todd call out something they were dealing with and got delivered from it/healed on the spot? Folks don’t make that up—-and if they’re being passionate for the Lord/zealous for Him, that needs to be adressed.

So how does that relate to FLORIDA? How is the Gospel of Christ not being preached there currently? Or false conversions taking place? And what are some reasonable/gracious answers to concerns folks are having over it that can provide CLARITY on the issue for folks instead of the typical “IT’S WRONG!!!! YOU’RE FOOLS FOR SUPPORTING IT” answers? Deception/truth isn’t going to be realized in an instant, and deprogramming on things takes signficant time and patience with many. And yes—-it can be VERY easy for us to become like the kinds of Pharisees Jesus denounced ( as seen here, #6 —-) ) or into the trap of slander/misrepresenting people in declaring what the motives of their hearts are when we can know no such thing 100%. (://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=2649266&postcount=118 ). No need in trying to deal with one issue of sin by promoting